SacredWiki NPC Template

[Silver_fox 397]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that this new NPC template can now be considered introduced to the wiki. Today I modified 18 NPC pages(including this two ones that are actually enemies) to much it + completely redid one on the same purpose (since there was nothing but a screenshot on this page).

 

Now adjusting all the NPCs I've done earlier to the new template is finished, so I can make some new pages.

 

By the way, is there a way to delete an image from the wiki? I changed some portraits so they could match the height conditions better, so there are some unused portraits in the wiki now. Is there a way to delete them?

[Schot 407]

I saw 2 references to the Soldier on that page and changed both of them to the new code. I haven't played with the new NPC template itself yet though.

 

Ok Thanks Knuckles, now that I know what the link should look like, I went ahead and changed it on the other parts of that page and on the High Elf Outpost 1 page. Those are all red links now, until the page gets created.

 

Good choice on the naming scheme of same named NPC/Enemies.

 

I'll probably split this off in a bit but for now I'd like to jump in on the Landlord and Guest in the Conspiracies quest. Those two should only be Quest Enemies. Great opportunity to create the rule of thumb though. I guess it's safe to say that if a character in question does not have a name then it is not an NPC and should not be classified as one. I'll add that to the template and the top of this topic. Cheers for catching that Silver.

 

In the strictest sense of the definition of NPC ALL creatures in the game are NPC. Basically any friend or foe that has an active role in the game is an NPC. NPC meaning Non Playable Character. So in that sense Zeno was correct but did not mean to imply that those enemies should be categorized as NPC's. Many gamers, and particularly SacredWiki, uses NPC to more or less define allies and by allies we mean game characters that are in some way helpful be it by giving quests or simply offering information. NPC's that have a dialogue box with their name when spoken to are a basic example.

 

So for now we're only documenting NPC's as those who at some point have either the ? or ! symbols above their heads.

 

P.s.

I'll post my thoughts about your interest in the Quest template in a bit. Gotta pace myself. ^^

 

Well, when I was asked to do NPC pages for them, I'd been surprised too. Yet I was only starting to write wiki articles back then, so I thought that somebody that unexperienced was not the one to complain. I asked you because I was thinking that considering them NPCs wasn't right.

 

As for the soldiers and others... If you press 'Alt', you'd see the names of all the creatures around you. If you press this button in that soldier camp, you won't see any tags on all the soldiers. That particular soldier is an exception. You can read 'Soldier' on his tag. So he is not an unnamed soldier, but a creature named 'Soldier'.

 

Yet I wanted to suggest another definition for Sacred NPCs that should be described: If this creature offers you a dialog that you can read in a special window, than it is an NPC. Otherwise it is an enemy or a civilian. How about that?

 

Your thoughts were spot on Silver. Forgive me if I tend to be overly detailed. I'm always writing with readers who might be unfamiliar with our project in mind. I like your suggested definition. We'll go with that. My mention of a no name enemy was a bad example. My basic example was a much better one. "NPC's that have a dialogue box with their name when spoken to...".

 

And by the way, there are several NPCs with the same name 'High Elf Soldier' in game. Yet they ARE NPCs since they talk to you and offer you several quests (check Hunting Highwaymen for example).

 

I think the name scheme Knuckles and Ysne talked about will take care of that nasty problem.

 

Sorry, I forgot to mention that this new NPC template can now be considered introduced to the wiki. Today I modified 18 NPC pages(including this two ones that are actually enemies) to much it + completely redid one on the same purpose (since there was nothing but a screenshot on this page).

 

Now adjusting all the NPCs I've done earlier to the new template is finished, so I can make some new pages.

 

By the way, is there a way to delete an image from the wiki? I changed some portraits so they could match the height conditions better, so there are some unused portraits in the wiki now. Is there a way to delete them?

 

18 NPC upgrades. Nice! I'm glad it's working out to your satisfaction Silver. With your wonderful descriptions and a nice clean layout the NPC's are looking fantastic. As for deleting images it's only admins. Are you able to "replace" the image. As admins we're able to dso this. I'm not sure if members can but give it a try. What you do is just go to the page your image is on. For example:

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Image:Ortlewyn_worldmap.jpg

 

On that page you might see a link called "Upload a new version of this file". If you do then click on it and upload your revised image version to overwrite the present version.

 

I'll see about updating the first post with everything we've talked about.

[Silver_fox 397]

On that page you might see a link called "Upload a new version of this file". If you do then click on it and upload your revised image version to overwrite the present version.

Of course I tried to go to the pic page before. Sadly, this link is admin-only. Normal users can see only 'Edit with exteernal application' link. I tried this thing, yet it appears to be not all that easy.

 

Your thoughts were spot on Silver. Forgive me if I tend to be overly detailed. I'm always writing with readers who might be unfamiliar with our project in mind. I like your suggested definition. We'll go with that. My mention of a no name enemy was a bad example. My basic example was a much better one. "NPC's that have a dialogue box with their name when spoken to...".

Well, looks like I'm not the only one who tends to be overly detailed. It's completely OK for me, don't need to be sorry. But after some time I understood that actually NPC definition may be simpler: 'punctuation is a must'. In other words, if a character can be pictured with a kind of '?', '!' or '?!' above his/her head, then this chara offers a dialog and therefore is an NPC. If we've already decided that the punctuation must be pictured, no need to specify more. If you can't picture a chara with his/her respective punctuation, then he/she is not an NPC.

I wonder what to do with the guest and landlord now. For now I'd only remove them from the NPC category. Actually I don't have an intention to remove all the additional information I provided them with (at least for now). After all their bestiary entries look OK anyway, and I'm not sure it would hurt to have more information on the page.

 

I think the name scheme Knuckles and Ysne talked about will take care of that nasty problem.

Actually I've already discussed this problem with gogo while doing pages for this soldiers, so the naming system is OK (but these two are not named exactly like it is needed, maybe I should move their pages). I just wanted to say that even a quest giving NPCs sometimes don't have a name of their own.

[Ysne58 236]

There were two quests I went through before this issue came to the forefront with quest enemies that have names but no dialogue.

 

Michel, The Blacksmith's Apprentice

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacred_2:Michel,_the_Blacksmith's_Apprentice

 

and

 

The Pirate Cave.

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacred_2:The_Pirate_Cave

 

I did add some info to their pages as if they were NPCs.

 

I can change them back into regular quest enemies, but I'd like someone to take a look and make sure that is how we should handle them. Those are two of the tutorial quests.

[Schot 407]

The way Knuckles set those is perfect actually. Those are quest enemies that are only active and engaged after speaking to an NPC/Enemy so the three that acompany Darnak are only ever enemies whereas Darnak can be upgraded from a quest enemy to an NPC/Quest enemy.

 

What are the pages you said you changed from enemy to NPC Ysne?

 

P.s.

When talking about pages could you please provide links to the exact pages you're talking about Ysne? I hate to nag but I have no way to know or help with exactly what you're refering to. I did try looking through the quest pages you're linking to and sifting through the content for the enemies and NPC's you may have been talking about but it takes up a bit too much time to try and guess. No offense intended! Just trying to speed up the process of communication.

[Silver_fox 397]

One more little note about the new template. Looks like you forgot to add '__NOTOC__' in it. Firstly I was a bit surprised to see a table of contents on an NPC page, then I compared it to an old template and found out that missing tag.

[Silver_fox 397]

As for the NPC-enemies, right now I'm working on the one you have to find in the beginning of the Seraphim's singleplayer campaign. There was no page for her initially. I'd post the link as soon as the page would be ready.

[Ysne58 236]

The way Knuckles set those is perfect actually. Those are quest enemies that are only active and engaged after speaking to an NPC/Enemy so the three that acompany Darnak are only ever enemies whereas Darnak can be upgraded from a quest enemy to an NPC/Quest enemy.

 

What are the pages you said you changed from enemy to NPC Ysne?

 

P.s.

When talking about pages could you please provide links to the exact pages you're talking about Ysne? I hate to nag but I have no way to know or help with exactly what you're refering to. I did try looking through the quest pages you're linking to and sifting through the content for the enemies and NPC's you may have been talking about but it takes up a bit too much time to try and guess. No offense intended! Just trying to speed up the process of communication.

 

There is a section called quest enemies on those two pages. You will find them all listed there.

[Ysne58 236]

 

 

I think the name scheme Knuckles and Ysne talked about will take care of that nasty problem.

Actually I've already discussed this problem with gogo while doing pages for this soldiers, so the naming system is OK (but these two are not named exactly like it is needed, maybe I should move their pages). I just wanted to say that even a quest giving NPCs sometimes don't have a name of their own.

 

Knuckles came up with it. I just applied it. Silver go with what will make those look the best. The wiki is very much still a work in progress.

[Silver_fox 397]

One more stupid question: What should we do with hirelings that don't speak to you. According to our definition, they can't be considered NPCs, yet they still play their roles in quests and therefore should be described somehow. For example there are four soldiers involved in the tutorial quest, yet only two of them speak to you. How we should mention the others, that have names, stories, stats and fighting style (like which weapon they use or how agressive they are to mobs), yet don't offer a dialog?

[Ysne58 236]

One more stupid question: What should we do with hirelings that don't speak to you. According to our definition, they can't be considered NPCs, yet they still play their roles in quests and therefore should be described somehow. For example there are four soldiers involved in the tutorial quest, yet only two of them speak to you. How we should mention the others, that have names, stories, stats and fighting style (like which weapon they use or how agressive they are to mobs), yet don't offer a dialog?

 

That is a really good question. Those two did have red links on the Golden Coast page already when I first looked at the Pirate Cave quest.

[Schot 407]

One more stupid question: What should we do with hirelings that don't speak to you. According to our definition, they can't be considered NPCs, yet they still play their roles in quests and therefore should be described somehow. For example there are four soldiers involved in the tutorial quest, yet only two of them speak to you. How we should mention the others, that have names, stories, stats and fighting style (like which weapon they use or how agressive they are to mobs), yet don't offer a dialog?

 

 

One more stupid question: What should we do with hirelings that don't speak to you. According to our definition, they can't be considered NPCs, yet they still play their roles in quests and therefore should be described somehow. For example there are four soldiers involved in the tutorial quest, yet only two of them speak to you. How we should mention the others, that have names, stories, stats and fighting style (like which weapon they use or how agressive they are to mobs), yet don't offer a dialog?

 

 

That is a really good question. Those two did have red links on the Golden Coast page already when I first looked at the Pirate Cave quest.

 

Which two NPC's are you meaning? I ask because I noticed that there appears to be dialogue images for four different NPCs on that quest page. If that's the case then an NPC page for them would be just right.

 

 

Also, regarding the map images it's important that they are done in 300px width please.

[Ysne58 236]

Healer Lanara never has any dialogue. I believe Soldier Quindor is the other one with a name that is not an enemy and you cannot talk to.

[Schot 407]

I think in this case although they haven't any dialogue or ?! they can have an NPC page because they perform a role. A small story could easily be told for each of them as to how they were a part of the quest. Ultimately they are just props I think. Much like mules in other quests. I don't think we create NPC pages for mules though. I'm kinda on the fence with this. It could go two ways I figure. Either give them NPC pages are put them on a related NPC page. For example Quindor accompanies Sergeant Xalandar so Quindor could be entered on Xalandar's page.

 

Something that occurs to me though... Is it possible there are dialogues for those two in the shadow version of the quest?

[Ysne58 236]

I think in this case although they haven't any dialogue or ?! they can have an NPC page because they perform a role. A small story could easily be told for each of them as to how they were a part of the quest. Ultimately they are just props I think. Much like mules in other quests. I don't think we create NPC pages for mules though. I'm kinda on the fence with this. It could go two ways I figure. Either give them NPC pages are put them on a related NPC page. For example Quindor accompanies Sergeant Xalandar so Quindor could be entered on Xalandar's page.

 

Something that occurs to me though... Is it possible there are dialogues for those two in the shadow version of the quest?

 

 

I have a level 15 Inquisitor, let me find out real quick in bronze.

 

Edit, no there is no dialogue on the shadow side either.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Ysne58

[Schot 407]

Awh darn. Well it was worth a shot. Thanx for checking Ysne! I think they should get an NPC page. Won't be much on it but heck. Why not I guess. Either way I'm fine though.

[Ysne58 236]

Awh darn. Well it was worth a shot. Thanx for checking Ysne! I think they should get an NPC page. Won't be much on it but heck. Why not I guess. Either way I'm fine though.

Silver is doing an awesome job with the NPC pages. I'm just doing the best I can to make sure all those red links show up on as many of the correct pages as possible so when her work on a page does get done, it will be seen. I'm much better at polishing up pages than actually creating them.

 

I have also been trying to make sure that the NPCs on a places page are in alphabetical order. I think they NPCs are much easier to sort through that way.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Ysne58

[Silver_fox 397]

I understand about maps. Actually I try to make them symmetrical and all the size differences usually are +-10px ones that are unnoticeable from the first sight. I made only two really not-symmentrical ones, and those are the ones with the dungeon maps. Like Alethea's page. I didn't want to leave a lot of blank black space that would give no information but make a map itself smaller and therefore less readable. I wonder if you can advice me something. I'd make only 300px+300px maps from now on, I promise. But I really like to know how to handle those underground maps.

 

@Ysne: alphabetical order is usually nice, but on the places pages I sometimes sort them by their quests, to make related NPCs be listed next to each other. Also it may be better to mention the most important ones first. For example in the Noriath Temple the first two in alphabetical order would be minor NPCs from Seraphim's class-specific quest that won't talk nor even show up for other charas. I'm not sure that would be correct to mention them first. Also it may be better to mention main-quest NPCs before side-quest ones.

[Ysne58 236]

I understand about maps. Actually I try to make them symmetrical and all the size differences usually are +-10px ones that are unnoticeable from the first sight. I made only two really not-symmentrical ones, and those are the ones with the dungeon maps. Like Alethea's page. I didn't want to leave a lot of blank black space that would give no information but make a map itself smaller and therefore less readable. I wonder if you can advice me something. I'd make only 300px+300px maps from now on, I promise. But I really like to know how to handle those underground maps.

 

@Ysne: alphabetical order is usually nice, but on the places pages I sometimes sort them by their quests, to make related NPCs be listed next to each other. Also it may be better to mention the most important ones first. For example in the Noriath Temple the first two in alphabetical order would be minor NPCs from Seraphim's class-specific quest that won't talk nor even show up for other charas. I'm not sure that would be correct to mention them first. Also it may be better to mention main-quest NPCs before side-quest ones.

 

How about this then?

 

In the quests and NPCs section, I type Main Quest in bold if there are main quest npcs or quest stages -- place those in alpha order.

 

Then in bold again Quest Starters, list those in alpha order, and last, (if there are any)

 

Type Other (also) in bold and sort those in alpha order if there are any?

 

I think that would make it very readable.