Spell Intensity vs Spell Resistance

[claudius 104]

I did this test with an level 14 elf and a level 13 shadow warrior. Elf because with focalize mod on crystal skin she can change her spell intensity by switching on the buff without changing intelligence. Otherwise the test is null because intelligence raises damage to combat arts. I wanted to study with constant intelligence the effect of spell intensity versus spell resistance.

 

I used a shadow warrior because they can use Grim buff to raise willpower and thus spell resistance. I also used spell resistance amulets. And spell intensity rings.

 

The first thing I found was the elf could do very little damage which is a bit unbalanced for PvP though I will admit she was not a good speced elf. No lore since I didn't want crits to muddy the waters. Except the amulets rings and an axe on the shadow warrior in case a wolf came by they were both stripped of gear.

 

I took 11 data points of fireball hits for each set of Spell intensity (SI) versus spell resistance (SR)

 

SI 96 SR 69 == 9 9 7 7 7 7 4 4 7 7 7 total 75

 

SI 125 SR 69 == 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 6 6 4 4 total 79 [edit should be 69]

 

SI 134 SR 69 == 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 4 4 9 total 73

 

SI 165 SR 69 == 9 7 7 7 7 4 4 6 6 7 7 total 75

 

SI 165 SR 115 == 4 4 7 7 7 7 7 7 9 9 7 total 75

 

SI 165 SR 250 == 7 7 9 9 7 7 7 7 4 4 4 total 72

 

SI 96 SR 296 == 4 4 4 4 4 9 9 4 4 4 4 total 54

 

 

The last one stands out at me showing that very high SR reduces damage. Unfortunately we didn't see much benefit to almost 3x the SI. Now we didn't have enough data to draw a firm conclusion but it still leads me to believe this mod is not good to pump VERY HIGH. It depends what the monster SRs are. If the monsters have huge SR then you would want a high SI to match them and avoid what the Shadow Warrior did in the last piece of data.

 

I also had a theory that I am not seeing a trend due to the elf doing such low damage. So I did a quick trial she had 2 pieces of gear with sockets and I smithed some silver whets. Maybe I'll try niob later. By the way I wouldn't PvP an elf versus a shadow warrior!

 

Here are those results I was trying to see a difference from high SI ratio and average...

 

smithed..

 

SI 171 SR 69 == 9 9 9 9 9 9 6 6 6 6 6 total = 84

 

SI 132 SR 69 == 6 6 8 8 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 total = 91

 

So I got the opposite trend you would expect. I suspect I got some unlucky data but I also would propose that its not worth it to pump SI unless monsters have shadow warrior (with grim) like SRs....

 

Another thought is that its not a linear relationship and we were in a flat part of the graph with 1 -3 x SI / SR.... Maybe with 5 or 6 x SI/SR we would see improvement.

 

Another weird thing is how the same number often came in streaks.

Edited November 30, 2010 by claudius

[r00ster 1]

Spell intensity and resistance are supposed to work like attack/defense for melee.

Only with very high spell resistance is there a chance to negate roughly 50% of spell damage.

 

I would run your test again, not based on damage, but on 'hits'.

 

With a very high spell resistance, does the fireball still always 'hit' the sw?

 

Again, from what we were told, spell resistance and intensity are attack and defense for spells. Chance to successfully hit, not damage at all for the most.

 

Cheers,

Edited November 29, 2010 by r00ster

[claudius 104]

hits are always 100% with a combat art that lists intensity. The variable is the damage done not hits. http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacre...Spell_Intensity

 

In my test I had 100% hits for all my data.

Edited November 29, 2010 by claudius

[r00ster 1]

I will try to have a look tonight to check the code if I can to help.

 

Cheers,

[Dragon Brother 619]

SI 125 SR 69 == 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 6 6 4 4 total 79

This one should add up to 69, not 79. Quite clearly increasing SI has no effect on damage, although I guess we knew that.

[claudius 104]

good catch.

 

It all depends on monster spell resistance. If it is low or average SI won't matter. But if monster SR is as high as a shadow warrior with grim resilience then it matters. Different classes are on a different scale. I doubt DM and elf are missing any SI. But shadow warriors might be low? (for skeletal fortification)

[r00ster 1]

It all depends on monster spell resistance. If it is low or average SI won't matter. But if monster SR is as high as a shadow warrior with grim resilience then it matters. Different classes are on a different scale. I doubt DM and elf are missing any SI. But shadow warriors might be low? (for skeletal fortification)

 

I think really though, most enemies DO have SW like SR, more notably in later difficulties.

 

You see, SI vs SR is not an increasing gain/loss scenario like damage/armor.

It is like attack/defense for melee, in the sense, or 'disregard armor' for spells;

 

if SI > SR damage is 'full' to then get resisted by armor etc.

if SI < SR damage is '-50%' to then get resisted by armor etc.

 

SI vs SR actually has nothing to do with damage like you think. It is if/else statements, not a scalar damage gain/reduction like armor etc.

 

If you notice, in your tests you are missing the key element for analysis;

 

What is the listed damage of the elfs fireball?

like a 9 to 5 reduction is about the 50%.

 

As you can see by your last test, raising SR vs SI will amount to the 'chance' to -50% much more often.

It should also function like attack/defense in this regard, a check, and chance to occur. So even with low attack value a melee character still hits etc. However we know spells cannot 'miss' so this is why the change in -50% dmg.

Where increasing SI will ensure your spells do full damage, but of course are still subject to things like armor etc.

 

Cheers,

Edited December 2, 2010 by r00ster

[claudius 104]

It all depends on monster spell resistance. If it is low or average SI won't matter. But if monster SR is as high as a shadow warrior with grim resilience then it matters. Different classes are on a different scale. I doubt DM and elf are missing any SI. But shadow warriors might be low? (for skeletal fortification)

 

I think really though, most enemies DO have SW like SR, more notably in later difficulties.

 

You see, SI vs SR is not an increasing gain/loss scenario like damage/armor.

It is like attack/defense for melee, in the sense, or 'disregard armor' for spells;

 

if SI > SR damage is 'full' to then get resisted by armor etc.

if SI < SR damage is '-50%' to then get resisted by armor etc.

 

SI vs SR actually has nothing to do with damage like you think. It is if/else statements, not a scalar damage gain/reduction like armor etc.

 

If you notice, in your tests you are missing the key element for analysis;

 

What is the listed damage of the elfs fireball?

like a 9 to 5 reduction is about the 50%.

 

As you can see by your last test, raising SR vs SI will amount to the 'chance' to -50% much more often.

It should also function like attack/defense in this regard, a check, and chance to occur. So even with low attack value a melee character still hits etc. However we know spells cannot 'miss' so this is why the change in -50% dmg.

Where increasing SI will ensure your spells do full damage, but of course are still subject to things like armor etc.

 

Cheers,

 

No, its always a 100% chance to hit with variable damage(at least in my tests) Even with 3x the SR over spell intensity. If your not seeing numbers with a high level (100) toon and low toon (1) its probably because Sacred 2 doesn't display 0 damage.

 

Did you test your conclusion or look in the code? My tests don't agree with your hypothesis. The wiki also says differently. Maybe Llama will chime in he seems to know a lot of information from the developers.

Edited December 2, 2010 by claudius

[r00ster 1]

It all depends on monster spell resistance. If it is low or average SI won't matter. But if monster SR is as high as a shadow warrior with grim resilience then it matters. Different classes are on a different scale. I doubt DM and elf are missing any SI. But shadow warriors might be low? (for skeletal fortification)

 

I think really though, most enemies DO have SW like SR, more notably in later difficulties.

 

You see, SI vs SR is not an increasing gain/loss scenario like damage/armor.

It is like attack/defense for melee, in the sense, or 'disregard armor' for spells;

 

if SI > SR damage is 'full' to then get resisted by armor etc.

if SI < SR damage is '-50%' to then get resisted by armor etc.

 

SI vs SR actually has nothing to do with damage like you think. It is if/else statements, not a scalar damage gain/reduction like armor etc.

 

If you notice, in your tests you are missing the key element for analysis;

 

What is the listed damage of the elfs fireball?

like a 9 to 5 reduction is about the 50%.

 

As you can see by your last test, raising SR vs SI will amount to the 'chance' to -50% much more often.

It should also function like attack/defense in this regard, a check, and chance to occur. So even with low attack value a melee character still hits etc. However we know spells cannot 'miss' so this is why the change in -50% dmg.

Where increasing SI will ensure your spells do full damage, but of course are still subject to things like armor etc.

 

Cheers,

 

No, its always a 100% chance to hit with variable damage(at least in my tests) Even with 3x the SR over spell intensity. If your not seeing numbers with a high level (100) toon and low toon (1) its probably because Sacred 2 doesn't display 0 damage.

 

Did you test your conclusion or look in the code? My tests don't agree with your hypothesis. The wiki also says differently. Maybe Llama will chime in he seems to know a lot of information from the developers.

 

I know its 100% chance to hit.

Please, re-read my post

 

I was in the same 'place' as llama too.

 

Cheers,

[claudius 104]

me

 

Ah thats exactly how my tests show except that it doesn't matter how high your spell intensity is in the range SI/SR 1 to 3. You don't do any more damage. The only factor is if your spell intensity is too low. At least in the range of SI/SR 1 to 3 more SI didn't matter on the damage.

 

However as you say SI/SR 1 to 1/3 there was a marked decrease..

 

I've been watching my dragon mage and most creatures regardless of whether familiar is switched on or off he does the listed tooltip damage. Certain monsters like the lighting harpy he does less damage. I didn't test or calculate if its due to armor or if having a higher intensity is preventing damage loss (like in the SI/SR range of 1 to 1/3)

[r00ster 1]

You don't do any more damage.

 

Right.

SI vs Sr is simply a check whether you will lose 50% spell damage before any other calculations are made.

They felt they needed to have a system comparable to melees attack/defense to balance caster/melee is all. Spells always hit vs melee which can miss was unfair in their eyes, hence SI and SR were created.

 

Cheers,

[claudius 104]

You don't do any more damage.

 

Right.

SI vs Sr is simply a check whether you will lose 50% spell damage before any other calculations are made.

They felt they needed to have a system comparable to melees attack/defense to balance caster/melee is all. Spells always hit vs melee which can miss was unfair in their eyes, hence SI and SR were created.

 

Cheers,

 

Yes thats correct. At the same time I am dissapointed that the SI jewelry and focalize mod on crystal skin is not particularly useful. I think it actually is but for awhile I was dissapointed because I thought it useless. The way I think it useful is that I think a few select enemies have high SR. Demons the fish kind and the lightning harpies seem to have quite a bit to appearances. But I think the trash mobs (80-90% of enemies) like garemas, jungle cats, boars, turtles etc.. have so low spell resistance that you always have enough spell intensity. Obviously I have only limited knowledge to argue that and there are a lot of factors such as survival bonus and intelligence that need be considered.

Edited December 2, 2010 by claudius

[r00ster 1]

You don't do any more damage.

 

Right.

SI vs Sr is simply a check whether you will lose 50% spell damage before any other calculations are made.

They felt they needed to have a system comparable to melees attack/defense to balance caster/melee is all. Spells always hit vs melee which can miss was unfair in their eyes, hence SI and SR were created.

 

Cheers,

 

Yes thats correct. At the same time I am dissapointed that the SI jewelry and focalize mod on crystal skin is not particularly useful. I think it actually is but for awhile I was dissapointed because I thought it useless. The way I think it useful is that I think a few select enemies have high SR. Demons the fish kind and the lightning harpies seem to have quite a bit to appearances. But I think the trash mobs (80-90% of enemies) like garemas, jungle cats, boars, turtles etc.. have so low spell resistance that you always have enough spell intensity. Obviously I have only limited knowledge to argue that and there are a lot of factors such as survival bonus and intelligence that need be considered.

 

Well, first thing to note, is that SR weak enemies like you list are 'wild animals'

Wild animals for the most are truly trash mobs, and can only drop 'trash' as well; potions, runes, and gold. No items.

 

Also this will help you see merit;

 

Enemies are defined once, with hard, flat values.

I.e. 100 armor on a toad.

This is then scaled by difficulty, so come niob time, SI is an extremely important stat for spell casters, as these flat values become monstrous digits.

 

There are many skills, items, mods etc that appear useless or underpowered etc until the final act, and that is where they shine.

The game was created in reverese order to s1, where they balanced most things for niob difficulty, and scaled down, instead of bronze up.

 

Like take the 'knockback' mod on things.

Totally useless for 99% of the game prior to niob.

However, come niob, if you like killing trees on dryad isle or certain other areas, you need this mod. Trees will just pinball a melee fighter if they really gang up on you otherwise.

 

EDIT* I myself start noticing lack of SI in about gold. Its quite noticable with some builds, ice elf in particular in my experience. Think of it like attack / defense for melee, and how important those stats are to melee chars.

 

Cheers,

Edited December 2, 2010 by r00ster