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Swords, duel wield or two hands? Thoughts on a build


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#1 komodo150

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 09:19 AM

I was up late last night trying to mod the game, and started to think of how to make a simple easy to use build -with out- a lot of buff sets and bargaining sets and EP and..the list is long but. Being rather new to the game as a whole and on here I wanted to make my self known a tad being now part of the community and not a ghost who only reads.

Onward to my thoughts on a simple fun build. Please feel free to crit and advice is always welcome.

Skills:
level 2-Tactics Lore- keep at level till 75 (first five points into this skill)

Level 3-Exalted Warrior Focus- keep at level till level 75? (this im not sure on should I keep it at my level or get it to level 20ish and stop?)

Level 8- Dual wield- keep at level till 75? OR - Sword Weapons - keep at level till 75 (Now here is my ponder and thoughts. With duel wield you get a great offense but why is duel wield so grand? Now with sword weapons we have the power to unlock the neat little perks and (with two handed sword (or one handed and a shield) we save a whole 75 points to use some place else

Level 12- Armor Lore -we can add about 20 or so points into this till we master the other three skills (or am I wrong on that? (Silver toon then gold. I dont have gold and plat unlocked)

Level 25-35 - Combat Reflexes and Constitution (level them to around 20ish. My thoughts on why I would take them. Stamina stat is going to eat all my points every last one till level 50 then vitality will take the rest)

Level 50 - Toughness (im not sure how much I would spend on this. To start 20 points, master it? I donno thoughts?)

Level 65- Spell Resistance (20 points again but same question do I master this or no? Thoughts?)

Now on to CAs

Buff: Battle Stance (keep at level 1 (one rune used) or..keep low but eat runes on and off this im unsure about)
Mods: Premonition -Drill -Retaliation

Pelting Strikes: keep it as low as I need it for a 2.5 to 3 second refresh is my thought. Just spam this CA till my finger falls off
Mods: Succession -Focus -Precision

Soul Hammer: Boss killer and fun CA same as pelting strikes keep at a 2.5ish refresh
Mods:Wounding -Battering -Incision OR Coup de Grace (I dont know what one would be a better use. This question will make sense in the next part)

Combos: Pelting Strikes and Soul Hammer (Spam this and watch them die)
Soul Hammer let in its own slot (that boss getting you down? Take a swing see what falls out)

Thats for a melee only type im looking to go for. I was thinking maybe droping a skill and taking Celestial Magic Focus for Hallowed Restoration but with potions I dont think ill need that CA? Or am I missing some thing here?

Gear: I would be focusing on mostly armor that will give me STA or +to CA skills (named or all)
Weapons: again im up in arms on a duel wield or two handed/one handed with shield
I would forge the items with +to Battle stance or + to all skills and thats it. No buff suit wanted or needed is my thought

Well thats my idea for a fun first run through on a seraphim. I would love to hear from you all on what is wrong or not so good etc. Bombard me with knowledge and wisdom I am ready for it!

#2 essjayehm

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 11:46 AM

Well thats my idea for a fun first run through on a seraphim. I would love to hear from you all on what is wrong or not so good etc. Bombard me with knowledge and wisdom I am ready for it!

Hello, and Welcome to Dark Matters, Komodo150!

I don't have a lot of playtime with the 'wonderbabe' so I won't comment on your build too much, but I did notice a couple of things and have some general advice, too!

1) You missed level 5 and level 18 skill choices. You only have 8 skills listed, so you have 2 'free' choices. Take Enhanced Perception as one of them. Even if you aren't concerned with finding awesome loot, it does open up a useful modification on equipment, namely "+Experience per kill".

2) Sword Lore, or Dual Wield... whichever you take, do not take to mastery ASAP. Either plan on mastering it as 7-10th skill mastered, or never master them at all.

3) Definitely master all your defensive skills. Constitution and Spell Resistance offer the best 'perks' for mastery, so consider them above the others (unless you want high 'mitigation' early, then you have to do Toughness and Armour Lore).

I'll leave modifications, playstyle, etc... to someone who has more time with the seraphim.
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#3 lujate

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 12:16 PM

...
2) Sword Lore, or Dual Wield... whichever you take, do not take to mastery ASAP. Either plan on mastering it as 7-10th skill mastered, or never master them at all.
...

Can you explain your reasoning?

I have 0.8-0.9 RpH and like to keep my PS regen at about 5-5.4. With the RpH, I can use PS continuously but it still packs a good punch.

I like to have 2 defensive skills (Armor Lore and something else) mastered at 75.
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it." -Gandhi

#4 essjayehm

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 01:12 PM

...
2) Sword Lore, or Dual Wield... whichever you take, do not take to mastery ASAP. Either plan on mastering it as 7-10th skill mastered, or never master them at all.
...

Can you explain your reasoning?

I have 0.8-0.9 RpH and like to keep my PS regen at about 5-5.4. With the RpH, I can use PS continuously but it still packs a good punch.

I like to have 2 defensive skills (Armor Lore and something else) mastered at 75.

No problemo. This is one aspect of Sacred 2 that I seem to believe the opposite of most players. IMO, weapon lores are not needed at all, unless you want to wield 2 weapons, then you must have Dual Wield. Of course, on PC, you must take Staff Lore to get the staff shooting but other than that, the weapon lores offer very little to high-level toons. Here's a mod by mod breakdown:
Attack Rating: Weapon lores offer a +% to your attack rating. This is a good thing, until you notice the values of +% as compared to a buff like Battle Stance or minibuff like Combat Alert. If you start looking at the 'bonus' attack value that is built into the weapon-based Combat Arts... well, the Attack bonus offered by a weapon lore is downright laughable.
Attack Speed: Another good thingTM until you reach 150% (ie +50%)... then it is useless. This mod is found on enough equipment/socketables that reaching that +50% can usually be done with one item in the latter stages of a build.
Unlockable modifiers: Well, I cannot put this down in any way. Ohwait... most unique/legendaries do not require a weapon lore to get thier "good" mods. But, a Boneslicer is pretty pathetic without Sword Lore... as are some others... and if you want a "stunner" then you pretty much want Hafted Lore... specific builds may/will require a weapon lore to stack desireable mods. So this is the only reason for me to ever take a weapon lore (unlockable mods).
Highest weapon level without penalty: Wait X levels if you don't want a penalty... case closed./end joke This part I concede is quite useful for pushing low-level toons into difficulties they "don't belong in" ;)

OK... take everything above and chuck it out the window if you don't plan on going past Gold difficulty. Toons that are not planned to go above level 75-ish... and are melee in nature... will probably find weapon lores irreplaceable. But above that, they really start to lose their lustre.
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#5 lujate

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 07:35 PM

You make a fascinating and convincing argument. I have always tried to master DW by 75, but I think I will reroute those points somewhere else for my current character.
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it." -Gandhi

#6 komodo150

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 08:45 PM

essjayehm I have to say I never would have looked at sword or duel wield like that and frankly I like your reasoning behind it to. That frees up a whole heck of a lot of points to use hmm..more thinking is needed I say hehe

Edited by komodo150, 17 May 2011 - 08:46 PM.


#7 Antitrust

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 10:41 AM

For a "fun" build, I'd definitely pick both Dual Wield and Sword Weapons. Yeah, "waste" a slot, most uniques, yadda yadda... :heat:

I once realized that most of my time in Sacred 2 I've spent playing with the Officer's Sabers. Everything else was inferior, because pretty much every sword you find has some hidden mods on it.

I got really bored of opening my inventory and seeing new swords with red mods. It was like "Ok let's see what we got this time. Meh, all these swords give me only two bonuses, because I don't have Sword Weapons. I guess I'll keep using the Officer's Sabers that I've found 20 levels ago and have been using ever since."

But then I made a Seraphim with both skills, and suddenly I could use any sword I liked, dual or even two-handed, and swap them whenever I found something different. Not to mention the dual Boneslicer option.

And the LORD did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats...
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#8 essjayehm

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 11:23 AM

Antitrust brings a good argument here. :yay: I will not disagree, as I have taken Swords, Hafted AND Dual Weild in 1 build to get access to all the unlockable mods while using 2 weapons. I hate that red writing, too :D

I would not pour "hard" points into those skills... until the higher levels. I still leave DW @ 1 hard point and work on Swords/Hafted as there are modifications that require Swords (or Hafted) Lore Mastery to unlock.

But I will still say that I would prefer to have access to a 2nd or 3rd aspect (ie choose a Focus skill) rather than take a weapon lore if I was planning on playing a lot in Niobium difficulty... it leaves more options open for dynamic playstyles (Twisted Torment/Animus for Dryads) or just "moar power, rawr" (Divine Protection for seraphim).
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#9 Capt.Smack87

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 12:06 PM

For me duel wield(1 point) and sword weapons(mastered at 75) always go together.The main reason is the wounding effects the sword,sword mastery modifiers offer.Try duel Quetzal's first strike swords the serious open wounds is deadly and makes enemies bleed to death fast.

#10 Graeystone

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 06:45 PM

Don't neglect the seraphim's defense though. Because she is Duel Wielding, that means no hand shield. Shields in Sacred 2 do give some great defense and bonus.(Shield Skill). However with DW, Armor Skill is a MUST besides the usual 'keep the armor weight/combat art's cooling time down'. You can also put put a rune(JUST 1[anymore and the cool down time for combat arts gets screwed up) into Energy Shield and put points into Energy Shield. However Energy Shield is a 'balancing act' all its own.

#11 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 07:30 PM

essjayehm I have to say I never would have looked at sword or duel wield like that and frankly I like your reasoning behind it to. That frees up a whole heck of a lot of points to use hmm..more thinking is needed I say hehe


Welcome to the forum, and glad you chose Sacred 2.

Lotsa real good info here, so hang out and ask questions and read a lot.

If you haven't found it yet, you gotta check out sacred wiki
I'm not saying that cause this site is involved in the backbone of it; it is simply the best resource available on the game.

Read also guides posted here.
Many are passionate about one skill or attribute of some kind and feel others are a waste. Let em make their case, then decide if you're persuaded by their argument.
I for instance feel speed lore is a skill where you invest too much and get too little, but others swear by it (see http://www.sacredwik...ed_2:Speed_Lore) Who is right? Well, I obviously am :)

When it comes to dual wield specifically, I feel the double hit bonus is worth the investment for my sort of characters (see http://www.sacredwik...ed_2:Dual_wield)
When you are using high life leech, it not only heals you (duuuh) but does extra bonus damage as well, so hitting fast and often works well.
Specially (as was pointed out) in Niobium, the highest difficulty of the game.

Graeystone is absolutely right.
I built my first Seraphim shopper and largely ignored defense (other than standard cursory defense IMO) and was able to get to platinum up till almost the last boss, then started being terrified.
Then I read and reread and reread all guides I could and found what I had skipped over: Seraphim can be fragile at high difficulties if there isn't a good defensive plan involved. There's different ones documented out there -- be sure you adopt at least one.

Bottom line though: it's your game. There is no 'wrong', there is only 'fun'. Do whatever brings you the most fun, and you can't go wrong.

Post Script edit:

For me duel wield(1 point) and sword weapons(mastered at 75) always go together.The main reason is the wounding effects the sword,sword mastery modifiers offer.Try duel Quetzal's first strike swords the serious open wounds is deadly and makes enemies bleed to death fast.


I've wanted to try that option, but haven't taken a plunge yet.
I am assuming it takes the attack speed of the sword skill rather than the dual, and it grants the double hit bonus too, right?

Edited by JKtheWonderguy, 31 May 2011 - 07:36 PM.

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#12 chattius

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 02:09 AM

Dual weapons 1 - sword lore 75
In niob it are 4 sockets to reach maximal attack speed even without a weapon skill. So I think 1 point into dual wield is enough. You will have +allSKills gear anyway to boost dual wield, so all what is left to socket is probably around 2 times casting speed(!!). So these sockets would help to speed up spells which haven't a lore to do it, like Dashing_Alacrity.

I do not know how you use Dashing_Alacrity, but I did it mainly to break and block root effects. So it is an emergency spell and should be casted quickly. If you are rooted you can't close into to an enemy as a melee fighter.

Speed lore
Speed lore can have its reasons, but it has to be planed into the build from begin and not just what skill I will choose now.
example:
My kungfu dryads are using the full Detheya-Set which has no run speed. So taking speed lore is a way to add run speed. The kungfu has no weapon skill and no weapon, so lots of sockets are filled with 'x-x damage' rings and no whet blacksmith art is used. So speed lore adds the equivalent to attack values as 4-5 whet sockets. The kungfu is using a shield and has shield lore. So at areas with a lot of shooters a shield with scalable fix defense value is an option. Speed lore will multiply this base defense points.

But for most characters there are better skills to choose than speed lore.
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#13 lujate

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 05:49 AM

...
When it comes to dual wield specifically, I feel the double hit bonus is worth the investment for my sort of characters (see http://www.sacredwik...ed_2:Dual_wield)
When you are using high life leech, it not only heals you (duuuh) but does extra bonus damage as well, so hitting fast and often works well.
Specially (as was pointed out) in Niobium, the highest difficulty of the game.
...

Just something to keep in mind, AFAIK, double hits only apply to left click attacks.
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it." -Gandhi

#14 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 05:04 PM

Heee hee
See what I mean? :agreed:

...in niob it are 4 sockets to reach maximal attack speed even without a weapon skill. So I think 1 point into dual wield is enough. You will have +allSKills gear anyway to boost dual wield, so all what is left to socket is probably around 2 times casting speed(!). So these sockets would help to speed up spells which haven't a lore to do it,..

Sure, but you can also use those slots for something else. So for the balance I use those kinda things for Opponents Chance to Evade or Death Blow. If you have natural speed maxed out, don't take more than one ring (or an item that has it on it already) to max stuff out.
One of my favorites (since you don't have to search for it, you just do the quest) is the finger hoop you get from the Demon Guy in the Cursed Forest. Sometimes early I'll put two or three on one guy to max his cast speed, gradually rpl'ing as I grow in attack speed with other sundry options (usually a rare damage blow/damage x-x ring if I got or a +all)

I do not know how you use Dashing_Alacrity, but I did it mainly to break and block root effects. So it is an emergency spell and should be casted quickly. If you are rooted you can't close into to an enemy as a melee fighter.

That's how I use it too. I mean the speed is nice to have around, but I wanna have it available for places like the swamp around the spiders for a get up and go now option

Speed lore can have its reasons, but it has to be planed into the build from begin and not just what skill I will choose now.
example:
My kungfu dryads are using the full Detheya-Set which has no run speed. So taking speed lore is a way to add run speed. The kungfu has no weapon skill and no weapon, so lots of sockets are filled with 'x-x damage' rings and no whet blacksmith art is used. So speed lore adds the equivalent to attack values as 4-5 whet sockets. The kungfu is using a shield and has shield lore. So at areas with a lot of shooters a shield with scalable fix defense value is an option. Speed lore will multiply this base defense points.

But for most characters there are better skills to choose than speed lore.

I had not considered the multiplication factor. I concede: it has its place for power.
I may also make use of that information in the claw builds I have. My primaries that I push there though is damage lore, so although they have low damage they have slots a no weapon toon wouldn't have.
With some planning, you can put a group of enemies into a tizzy hitting them with three or four bad status', and while they wander around freaking out you can put em out of their misery, and it pushes the damage up real nice when you hit with a scything sweep or a similar mutli-hitters.

I also need to try a kung-fu chick, but I got sooooo many builds to work on now. I'm struggling to get em all into gold...

Just something to keep in mind, AFAIK, double hits only apply to left click attacks.

Really? Doesn't seem like it, although maybe I'm not testing it well. I got only one now with max dual wield, two almost there.
My dual claw SW's hit sooo fast in right click (and they got double attack twice w/FR) I just took for granted it was going on, and never counted. Gotta test that out.
----
So if you go one DW and master Swords, do you get both the speed bonus and the double hit while dual wielding?
I'm anxious to find out, as I'm coming up on level fifty on a inquisitor claw toon, and was mulling rolling with that option to see what happens...

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-- In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.
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#15 Antitrust

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 02:54 AM

So if you go one DW and master Swords, do you get both the speed bonus and the double hit while dual wielding?
I'm anxious to find out, as I'm coming up on level fifty on a inquisitor claw toon, and was mulling rolling with that option to see what happens...

If you hold two swords, only the skill bonuses from Dual Wield apply. If you hold one sword, only the skill bonuses from Sword Weapons apply.

The second skil is only for the unlockable bonuses.

I believe the Double Hit only works with regular attacks. I think it works like an extra attack, you hear an additional slash and the char suddenly chops monsters faster. I was having lots of fun alternating my Pelting with simple attacks. It made me wonder if regular attacks are actually more effective than Pelting. I ended up using the left click for weaker enemies in low numbers, and Pelting for larger groups that need an extra oomph.
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#16 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 10:45 PM

If you hold two swords, only the skill bonuses from Dual Wield apply. If you hold one sword, only the skill bonuses from Sword Weapons apply.

The second skil is only for the unlockable bonuses.

I believe the Double Hit only works with regular attacks. I think it works like an extra attack, you hear an additional slash and the char suddenly chops monsters faster. I was having lots of fun alternating my Pelting with simple attacks. It made me wonder if regular attacks are actually more effective than Pelting. I ended up using the left click for weaker enemies in low numbers, and Pelting for larger groups that need an extra oomph.


I am wondering the same.
I know the pelting strikes changes targets easier than the regular attacks, but AFAIK, the regular strikes hit more often.
There is a marked difference when mounted; regular attacks hit much more often. The animation is slower with pelting.

My queen of claws just got resurrected after she got to what I thought was unstoppable. Wasn't paying attention and wham! survival bonus went from 90.3 to zero.
I am major bummed.

Gonna build her again, but better. I believe this time I'm gonna focus on regular attacks and high level somersaults instead.
So I don't completely hijack the thread, lemme post the build in another thread :)

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#17 smetia

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 10:01 AM

[quote name='komodo150' timestamp='1305641985' post='6928176']
I was up late last night trying to mod the game, and started to think of how to make a simple easy to use build -with out- a lot of buff sets and bargaining sets and EP and..the list is long but. Being rather new to the game as a whole and on here I wanted to make my self known a tad being now part of the community and not a ghost who only reads.

Onward to my thoughts on a simple fun build. Please feel free to crit and advice is always welcome.


U can try a kinda Queen of blades with some little modifications.
-Tactics lore(dmg)
-Exalted Warrior focus mode gest 3 skills and use them:
SOulhammer;wounding,battring,coupe de grace
Assailing Somersault(spurt,brawn,conccusion)
Battle Stance(agrresion,flexibility,retaliation)The aura will be moded first after that wich u like most
-Sword weapons for critical, attack speed and to wear higher weapons.
-Revered rehnilogy for archagel wrath (salvo,lock,vulnerable)with this u will have rotation on spells and aroun level 50 with one rune consumed eack wrath wil crit around 2k .
-Armour lore
-Combat reflexes
-COnstitution
-Concentration
-Warding energy Lore
The last skill you're choice,thougness,spell resist or enchance perception.

Attributes all in vitality until 50 after 1 vitality and strenght or stamina how do you want it.
If u play around level 100 and a bit focus gest on tactics,aspect constitution and armour,if not happy mastery skills for you.




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