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#1 Burn-X

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 09:41 PM

Making a HE using Magic Coup as her main offensive CA. This is basically my planned build, but written more like a guide so others can easily get started on this fun and challenging build.

Check out the findings at Lightning Battlemage Study as this build is based on what the great people there have found out about Magic Coup. Below is a summary of things to know about regarding to Magic Coup from that thread:

  • Ancient Magic, Tactics Lore and Magic damage does not increase damage

  • Physical damage, critical chance and weapon base damage does increase damage

  • Attack Value determine chance to hit

  • Attack speed mod does not affect Magic Coup
My findings: Magic Coup damage does not increase with Tactics Lore. Initially I thought it did, but it was a mistake and the summary above is true.


Attribute Points

The Attributes listed below directly improves Magic Coup effectiveness by increasing weapon damage.

  • Strength - For Sword Weapons. Probably the best choice for a Magic Coup build as it improves your Attack Value significantly.

    My findings: Not all swords gets a damage boost from Strength, some are from Dexterity. This is regardless of their size. The only sure way to know is to equip the sword and check the attribute bonus indicator to see if Weapon damage is listed.

  • Dexterity - For Ranged Weapons. A defensive attribute that boosts Defense Value and some Attack Value.

  • Intelligence - For Magic Staffs. Not as great as Strength or Dexterity because it will not increase Attack Value or Defense Value, but does increase your Spell Intensity which in turn helps with your other spells.

Skills

I have retired my Melee Magic Coup HE in favor for a Range variant. I strongly recommend checking out chattius threads for very well thought out Melee Magic Coup builds:

self sufficient melee elf - HC 2.40

Guide: Melee Elf, hardcore to level 75 (mainly PC version)

For reference, this is my own Melee Magic Coup build:

  • Sword Weapons
  • Armour Lore
  • Constitution
  • Shield Lore
  • Delphic Arcania Lore
  • Delphic Arcania Focus
  • Speed Lore *
  • Spell Resistance *
  • Riding *
  • Enhanced Perception *


  • Delphic Arcania Lore
  • Delphic Arcania Focus
  • Tactics Lore **
  • Ranged Weapons
  • Bargaining
  • Armour Lore
  • Constitution
  • Speed Lore *
  • Spell Resistance *
  • Enhanced Perception *

* Can be replaced with whatever skills are desired

** Use 5 Skill Points only to unlock Ranged Weapons

My findings: From what I have read, Bargaining is a useful skill to have especially at the end-game. Many players get the skill early and try to get its level to be at least the character level through items. I have changed the skill list to have Bargaining, but at a later stage.


Combat Art Modifications (Source: SacredWiki)

Cobalt Strike:

For tough single targets.

  • Heavy Damage - Increases direct damage output. (50% increase in magic damage, overall 31% increase to total damage)
  • Electrify - Increases the chance to reduce the opponent's attributes. (40% + 0.4% per CA level increased chance)
  • Critical - Increases the chance to land critical hits. (9.9% + 0.1% per CA level chance)
Magic Coup:

Main CA :blush:

  • Target Focus - Increases the chance that opponents cannot evade or parry incoming hits. (30% + 0.2% per CA level chance opponent cannot evade)
  • Life Leech - Leeches life from the target and adds it to the caster's life. (5% + 5% per CA level lifeleech)
  • Critical - Increases the chance to land critical hits. (20% + 0.2% per CA level increased chance)
My findings: Area of Effect damage is less than half of Magic Coup damage. Triggers Life Leech on targets affected by Area of Effect, but not for Mana Steal.

Target Focus is a much better choice over Heavy Damage, especially for boss fights.

How much Magic damage does Magic Coup give?Bare hands	Level 1		Level 2		Level 3		Level 4----------	-------		-------		-------		-------	Total damage:	33 - 33		36 - 36		39 - 39		41 - 41Physical: 	22 - 22		23 - 23		25 - 25		26 - 26Magic: 		11 - 11		13 - 13		14 - 14		15 - 15Sword (43 - 54)---------------Total damage:	99 - 127	106 - 134	115 - 142	122 - 153Physical:	65 - 83		68 - 86		73 - 90		76 - 97Magic:		34 - 44		38 - 48		42 - 52		46 - 56% of total damage is Magic damage at Level 1: ~33%% Magic damage increase per level: ~1%

How much extra damage does Heavy Damage mod gives?Delphic Arcania Lore: 3 (Unlock Heavy Damage mod)Bare hands	Level 1			Level 2			Level 3			Level 4----------	-------			-------			-------			-------Total damage:	39 - 39   (45 - 45)	40 - 40   (47 - 47)	42 - 42   (51 - 51)	46 - 46   (52 - 52)Physical: 	25 - 25	  (30 - 30)	26 - 26   (30 - 30)	27 - 27	  (33 - 33)	29 - 29   (33 - 33)Magic: 		14 - 14	  (15 - 15)	14 - 14   (17 - 17)	15 - 15	  (18 - 18)	17 - 17   (19 - 19)Sword (47 - 57)---------------Total damage:	123 - 150 (144 - 176)	130 - 160 (153 - 188)	139 - 168 (162 - 197)	146 - 178 (170 - 209)Physical:	81 - 99   (94 - 115)	84 - 103  (99 - 122)	88 - 107  (103 - 126)	92 - 112  (107 - 132)Magic:		42 - 51   (50 - 61)	46 - 57	  (54 - 66)	51 - 61   (59 - 71)	54 - 66   (63 - 77)% increase in total damage: ~17%

What happens to Elemental damage when using Magic Coup?Magic Coup: 1Sword Weapons: 31Delphic Arcania Lore: 16Weapon: Sword (69 - 100)Socket: Chunk of Lava (32.8%)Normal Attack		Non-socket	Socket		-------------		----------	------Total damage:		98 - 142	123 - 151Physical:		98 - 142	75 - 92Magic:			None		NoneFire:			N/A		48 - 59Magic Coup				----------		Total damage:		247 - 357 	308 - 380Physical:		162 - 234 	125 - 153Magic:			85 - 123	183 - 227Fire: 			N/A		None% of Total damage is Magic damage for Magic Coup (Non-socket): ~34%% of Total damage is Magic damage for Magic Coup (Socket): ~59%
My findings: Elemental damage is actually being done with using Magic Coup, but the damage over time effect can never be triggered. The extra Magic damage is probably a display bug.

Shadow Step:

Use mainly to get out from difficult situations.

  • Escape - Chance to break all rooting effects while teleporting. (100% chance)
  • Vanish - The caster remains invisible for a brief period after the teleport. (9.9 secs + 0.1 sec per CA level)
  • Mend - Heals the caster during teleport. (20% + 0.2% per CA level healing)
Expulse Magic:

Against mobs or spell users.

  • Strength - Increases banishing potential but maintain the same effective radius.
  • Pentagram - Reduces the duration and impact of incoming weakening effects. (50% reduction on debuffs)
  • Protection - Chance to block direct magical damage. (30% + 2% per CA level chance to block spell)
My findings: Some monsters are more resislent to effects of fear and some are even immune to it.

Grand Invigoration:

Activate it at all times.

  • Arrant Pyromancer Expertise - The regeneration time for the aspect Arract Pyromancer will decrease significantly. (10% + 1% per CA level decrease)
  • Life Energy - Additionally increases the hitpoint regeneration rate. (2 HP/sec flat increase + 1 HP/sec per CA level)
  • Resilience -Reduces the impact and duration of incoming detrimental effects. (30% + 0.3% per CA level reduction on debuffs)
* Note: Replace with Mystic Stormite Expertise if using Mystic Stormite Aspect. Either one if not using other Aspects.

If you want to get Incandescent Skin or Crystal Skin as a second buff:

Incandescent Skin:

  • Combusting Arrows - Chance that arrows may burn before they can inflict damage. (30% chance to block ranged attack)
  • Revenge - Chance to reflect close combat damage. (30% chance)
  • Arrant Pyromancer Expertise - Further decreases the regeneration time for the Arrant Pyromancer aspect. (20% decrease)
Crystal Skin:

  • Freeze - Slows movement rate of opponents in close combat range. (19.8% slow)
  • Focalize - Increases the spell intensity of the aspect Mystic Stormite combat arts. (30% increase)
  • Mystic Stormite Expertise - Decreases the regeneration time for the Mystic Stormite aspect. (26.7% decrease)
Play Tips

  • Do side quests and kill bunch of monsters along the way to get loot and gold -

    This build is very gear depend to be survivable and effective, so do not speed though the campaign. Though it is possible to fight bosses thanks to the level scaling, it will be risky and long. Good equipment will make a big difference in boss fights.

  • Use bows only -

    Bows fire the fastest and have a longest range compared to the other range weapons, so make them your primary weapon of choice. Bows also can pull off hit and run maneuvers easily which is important for a this fragile build.

  • "One shot, one kill" -

    One shot normal enemies by boosting Magic Coup as much as possible. When sniping a distant group of enemies, killing an enemy with a single shot will not cause the group to attack you. This way you can safely take out most, if not all, of the enemies without retalition.

    Even if you get spotted by the enemy group, sometimes one of them will gesture the others to attack you. Take that enemy out first because this will delay the attack a bit longer thus allowing you more time to finish off the remainder enemies.

  • Cast Expulse Magic often when mobbed -

    Unless you are completely certain the mob cannot kill you, cast Expulse Magic before and during the fight. Always keep one active all the time. This will cause some of the monsters to run away in fear. Less monsters attacking you means less damage you take. Yes it is annoying to chase them later, but it is much safer.
Credits

azmodael - Teaching me something 'bad'.

StiCk_eM - Pointing out that Magic Coup does carry over Elemental damage.

Edited by Burn-X, 19 July 2009 - 11:35 AM.


#2 Schot

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 12:37 AM

Very nice build write up Burn-X. I like the color coding too. :blush: So we finally have a melee approach to the caster of Sacred 2. this is something I very much wished for my BM in Underworld. I did try even without a melee CA. It's quite a challenge in either game eh?

Something I'm wondering. Since Magic Coup converts part of your physical damage into Magic damage do you think it would be better to socket a Magic Pearl into your weapon and then add Damage: Magic +% to your build? Or could it be better to leave your weapon as all physical, add Damage: Physical +% which would give a larger physical pool for Magic Coup to convert from. Or as a third option would you suggest adding pure base damage jewelry? Or or... Omg there's too many options in Sacred 2, lol.

Also. What's in your sockets? There's certainly a lot to consider with this kind of a build.

#3 Burn-X

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 01:30 AM

Personally I socket Whet (+% Damage & +% Attack Value). This will boost Magic Coup damage plus increase the Attack Value of your character.

I have yet to test how +% Damage and + Base Damage affects the total damage of Magic Coup.

Also I notice that when using Magic Coup, it doesn't apply other elemental damages. Not sure if it's ignored or gets converted to Magic damage. Again I will need to test this unless someone already knows the answer.

#4 Erling

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 05:18 AM

wouldent the modification on crystal skin : decrease near opponents ice resistance? thats what I did.. died at level 24 to meeting a 15 level higher opponent but... I know stick_em did this to 40+ and I think he went with that aswell :blush:

it would be great if you tried to play.
forgeing +x% damage will be
physical +x%
frost +x%
fire +x%
magic +x%
poisen +x%

you will do magic and frost damage and a little physical so it would be a good choise to forge that :resp:

it would be good if you tried to actuly play the build a little, because this was just a planned build, right?
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#5 Burn-X

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 06:55 AM

I have a Magic Coup HE though she is pretty much starting her long career as she is only Level 24. I've been reloading previous saves to try out a few things that I thought were worth testing.

For example Steal Mana is really awesome. At first I didn't know what it did, but now I think its much better than Life Leech.

Yes, +% Elemental damages is important as I am playing a single Aspect. So I need to socket elemental damage to deal with high Physical and Magic resistant monsters.

So far though she is blast to play, but bosses are a big problem because I haven't invest in her defensive skills just yet.

#6 Zinsho

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 08:30 PM

What exactly does Steal Mana do as opposed to Life Leech. Saying one works better than the other is nice, however giving a reason for such allows others to form their own opinions.

Also you say Tactics Lore does increase damage, however you don't take it in your projected skill list?

Edited by Zinsho, 24 December 2008 - 08:32 PM.


#7 Burn-X

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 12:10 AM

What exactly does Steal Mana do as opposed to Life Leech. Saying one works better than the other is nice, however giving a reason for such allows others to form their own opinions.

Also you say Tactics Lore does increase damage, however you don't take it in your projected skill list?

Steal Mana make Magic Coup regen faster, but not by directly cutting down the regen time. When you activate Magic Coup, upon striking a target, the regen gets cut shorter thus quicken the regen time. I have yet to try pumping Magic Coup to see if how much it can cut the regen time. I am also unsure what the % values mean for Steal Mana.

Tactics Lore does increase the damage of Magic Coup, but I don't think its worth getting. Damage Lore is far better as it helps with more Physical and Magic resistance monsters.

#8 StiCk_eM

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 03:10 AM

Can you explain your argument between Tactics and Damage because I don't understand.

As said before I took this build to level 47, but I'm not ready to come out with a guide for it yet, it is slightly different and doesn't use Cobalt Strike at all cause I see that as cheating...

Oh and when you socket say a poison fang or a lava rock and it seems that magic coup is still doing all magic damage is wrong. It is a display bug. Really you are doing some poison or fire (depending on what you socket) and magic and physical. Now how the percentage conversions between socketed ones (pearls and lava and fang) and the conversion from magic coup works I have no clue, but would love to hear more about that if you have some insight on that :D

Great work you are doing though,

StiCk_eM

Oh and yes mana steal is WAY superior to the life leech :)
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#9 Burn-X

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 04:15 AM

Magic Coup converts Physical damage to Magic damage. So it does two kind of damage regardless of what element socket you have. So far I've never seen Magic Coup apply the element effect on a target, but might be because of the low chance for it to occur. I will indeed have to look into it again StiCk_eM.

Based on that, Damage Lore is a must because Magic Coup is my main CA and nothing else. So if I meet a monster/boss with good Physical and Magic resistant, I will have no viable means to fight them. Thus Damage Lore to help me apply elemental damage and increase the damage over time as well.

I'm not saying you can't take Tactic Lore, you can take whatever you want. Is just it doesn't seem to be as good as Damage Lore to me. Also Riding now looks pretty questionable as well...

I will put in my reasons behind some of the choices I've made to clear up some confusion as people think this is some definitive guide when really I'm learning more and more about this build everyday :D

Please do share what you know about a Magic Coup build. In the official Sacred 2 forum, one person have already given up on such a build saying it's under powered in Gold difficulty.

#10 Zinsho

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 08:20 AM

Burn-X:
Damage lore doesn't increase damage whatsoever.

All it does is increase the chance of poison/burn/freeze/weaken, and after 75 it increases the effect of these statuses (should also work for open wounds).
Tactics Lore will help vs resistant monsters since more damage = more damage. and when resists are static values, higher damage means more gets through.

#11 StiCk_eM

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 11:15 AM

Burn-X:
Damage lore doesn't increase damage whatsoever.

All it does is increase the chance of poison/burn/freeze/weaken, and after 75 it increases the effect of these statuses (should also work for open wounds).
Tactics Lore will help vs resistant monsters since more damage = more damage. and when resists are static values, higher damage means more gets through.


What he said :D

Tactics is good on this build and a must

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#12 Burn-X

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 10:57 PM

My HE is now Level 47 with the skills listed on the first post up to Damage Lore.

Damage Lore seems alright for now because I have been maxing Sword Lore, so I can land it many hits compared to spamming Magic Coup to get in the DOT effect. However it doesn't seem that much better to just spamming Magic Coup which also gives me added Area of Effect effect.

So I guess Damage Lore isn't as good as I thought. Yes I know it doesn't improve damage, just the chance, but the mastery level does though only for the DOT. So now I'm kind of stuck.

Should I go get it to level 75 to unlock the mastery or should I completely not take this skill and go for something else? If so what should I go for if Tactics Lore doesn't do anything for Magic Coup?

Edited by Burn-X, 31 December 2008 - 11:02 PM.


#13 StiCk_eM

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Posted 01 January 2009 - 01:25 PM

You should restart and unless you really wanna test damage lore some more and instead of taking damage lore try tactics...its good trust me :blink:

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#14 Burn-X

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 10:19 PM

You should restart and unless you really wanna test damage lore some more and instead of taking damage lore try tactics...its good trust me :(

StiCk_eM

Yeah I loaded up a previous save game that I made for testing. I still haven't selected my 8th skill choice, but I guess no harm trying out Tactics Lore.

The way I tested it before was to kill a bunch of monsters without Tactics Lore. Then I reloaded the game and go back to the same area, but this time with about 10 points or so in Tactics Lore. I did notice a small increase in damage, but it was kind of hard to tell since I don't know the exact values of the minimum and maximum damage output.

Then recently I just decided to look at inventory page to see if Magic Coup damage goes up with Tactics Lore and it doesn't thus concluding that it doesn't work with Magic Coup. I guess you can't trust the Lying Stats Screen.

So does Tactic Lore actually improve Magic Coup in the sense that Magic Coup will deal more Magic damage thanks to more Physical damage being done? Or it just improves the Physical damage portion only without additional boost to Magic damage?

Thanks for your insight :)

#15 oolong666

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Posted 22 May 2009 - 09:07 PM

You should restart and unless you really wanna test damage lore some more and instead of taking damage lore try tactics...its good trust me :(

StiCk_eM

Yeah I loaded up a previous save game that I made for testing. I still haven't selected my 8th skill choice, but I guess no harm trying out Tactics Lore.

The way I tested it before was to kill a bunch of monsters without Tactics Lore. Then I reloaded the game and go back to the same area, but this time with about 10 points or so in Tactics Lore. I did notice a small increase in damage, but it was kind of hard to tell since I don't know the exact values of the minimum and maximum damage output.

Then recently I just decided to look at inventory page to see if Magic Coup damage goes up with Tactics Lore and it doesn't thus concluding that it doesn't work with Magic Coup. I guess you can't trust the Lying Stats Screen.

So does Tactic Lore actually improve Magic Coup in the sense that Magic Coup will deal more Magic damage thanks to more Physical damage being done? Or it just improves the Physical damage portion only without additional boost to Magic damage?

Thanks for your insight :)


nice

#16 Grillgrim

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 12:24 AM

I started a coupe HE myself yesterday. She is my first HC character so I am very protective of her. She is doing well and holding her own in most situations. I have had to retreat once or twice. She took down the griffon at level 5 in about a minute and Kobold chief at level 7 in about the same. I agree with the above comments about staying with tactics as opposed to damage lore. In the long run you are going to get more miles out of the tactics. Based on your above build I would nix the riding and stick in ancient magic. You are going to need the bonuses to other spells later on. I took mystic stormite focus for crowd control. Just the route I am taking with this type of build. the plan is:
Concentration
Mage Staff
Delphic Arcana Lore
Delphic Arcana Focus
Mystic Stormite Focus
Shield Lore
Tactics Lore
Armour Lore
Ancient Magic
Constitution

Most points are going into INT and Stamina to keep the spells strong and quick with a couple in Vitality for extra HP.
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#17 Burn-X

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 09:01 PM

Back playing Sacred 2 and now trying out a Bow Magic Coup HE.

Got a Range Magic Coup HE to Level 18 with the following skills:

  • Tactics Lore (5)
  • Ranged Weapons
  • Armour Lore
  • Constitution
  • Delphic Arcania Lore
  • Delphic Arcania Focus
Same as the skill set in my first post, but changed to get Ranged Weapons skill.

Magic Coup is modded as follows:

  • Heavy Damage - Increases damage bonus. (16.7% increase)
  • Life Leech - Leeches life from the target and adds it to the caster's life. (5% + 5% per CA level lifeleech)
  • Critical - Increases the chance to land critical hits. (20% + 0.2% per CA level increased chance)
The choices here are basically the opposite of what I recommend in my first post. I might try Target Focus though as I feel it is better in the long run.

Added links other Magic Coup builds and changed my own suggested build skills based on what I've read so far.

Edited by Burn-X, 15 July 2009 - 01:52 AM.





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