Fogeltje

I bought the CD once for a few bucks on Ebay, still sealed. It's been on my playlist since then.

In fact, one of the posts on SIF that I found through google has someone mentioning something like 'thankfully I knew where to go'. ARGH! I yelled at my screen "then bloody share that info with us!!" LOL

I've taken the Water Samples quest in the Swamp capital. This is one of the escort quests where the quest marker is (initially) bugged, it stays on the guy following me or to that annoying water area near the Seraphim arena. Can anyone direct me as to where I should go? I need to find watering holes but I really don't know what would qualify for those.

I noticed the similarity between the books and "lore" when I first read it But to me that's just a nod from the developers in an easter egg to existing lore. Your theory is a nice one though. I do in fact have wondered where the name Fallen Angel comes from as I have yet so far not seen anything in Sacred 2 that this title might reference to.

Oh don't start about the Forest Guardian...I tried that one, what a nightmare. First monster I gave up on...FULL health restoration? C'mon.

I have a question. Do Dragon bosses respawn? I was under the impression those special bosses don't respawn. Yet I was visiting an extended cave on an island east in the Dryad region and ran into a semi-spectral dragon. I killed it and accidentally stepped into a portal. Since I hadn't finished exploring the cave, I went back. Lastly I went back to the dragon room having some covered part of the map there still. The dragon was there again. Is that supposed to be? If so, so all Dragon's respawn? What about other boss enemies (not related to quests)? Note: I'm talking about SP.

Thanks for explaining guys

I help out on a wiki dedicated to public transport in the Netherlands (don't ask) and document old buslines as I have old timetables and stuff...I once went into overdrive and went absolutely banana's after that. Since then I ration my time I spend on editing wiki's

I'm not sure how "canon" the Book of the Seraphim is, especially since it's an easter egg. According to lore the Seraphim sprang from the blood of the goddess Sophia who sacrificed herself against the demon Worganar during the War of the Gods. The manual also specifies that Seraphims appear to be akin to Dragons (which ties in with Book of the Seraphim) probably indicating a relationship between the gods and the dragons. As far as the red links on Books go, those are the books that my character has in her possession. I already made the links so I only need to click on them and add the article. I'm just taking it slowly with adding them. I know where wiki frenzy can lead to.

Unrelated to wiki but related to the topic. Is that Northland quest taking place on the Christmas Island? I've read a lot of the Christmas quest but could never find it. However seeing screenshots it appears to be the island the Northland Expedition goes to.

That's of course a whole new look on things. Regardless of what the machine was, turning it off will have had an enormous effect on the High Elves (assuming they weren't able to repair the plumbing and turn it back on). I think a lot of them will have been very angry to give up their prosperity, probably not even caring for all the damage the leaking T-energy had done. @Wolfie: I'll read what you wrote later tonight, I'm curious

No, I'm sorry gogo. I can work with articles just fine, but when such issues arrive, I'm as clueless as the kobold that just got slaughtered by a sudden Radiant Pillar.

The list is far from complete, it's just all the books I was able to find out on my toons. I shall make a clarifying note on that on the wiki.

That's what I figured gogo I've made a start with the articles already. Went through my two other toons (I couldn't get to MP to check my toons there, does Open MP still exist?) and wrote those articles already. Will start on the books from my main toon tomorrow hopefully. Already did the Laws of the Barony's that I have since those are really short ones

Never mind, I did some more walking around the T-energy pool (after doing that already) and somehow I picked up the T-energy the lady needed. Quest solved.

I got the Elixir of Visions quest in the Dryad harbour town. I followed to quest marker to some T-energy creatures and killed all 15 of them. Now suddenly the quest is checked as completed but no message no reward. Talking to the quest giver doesn't help either. Anyone know what's going on?

Btw, I notice the Sacred 2 side menu on the wiki has a link to the Sacred 2 books. Could such a same link be made for Sacred/Underworld? I don't think I'm able to modify that side menu as a regular user.

I just found another discrepancy. The book "Harpies and Gargoyles" from Sacred tells us that Harpies and Gargoyles originate from the time of the War of the Gods. Gargoyles are stone water-spewers animated by Dark Elves. I guess you see the problem. The War of the Gods must have been set before Sacred as the Seraphim were created in it when the goddess Sophia sacrificed herself against Worganar. The Dark Elves don't appear to be around in times of Sacred 2 though. However this is just one book found in Sacred which contradict things, opposed to a whole game setting with multitudes of books, so this could be written off as an oversight and Gargoyles only originating later, after Sacred 2 when the Dark Elven faction emerged. However it's also possible the shift was made already and we just don't see the Dark Elves (or only one branch of them, the Inquisitors). But that makes the Dark Elven society VERY ancient as the War of the Gods must predate the Dragon Wars. The intro states the Seraphim shared their knowledge of the T-energy with the High Elves and that the Great War originated after that. Since the Seraphim were created in the War of the Gods it means that War must predate the Dragon Wars. I'd opt for the oversight issue here, meaning Gargoyles weren't around until much much later. That also would mean that by the time of Sacred 2 the Elements of Ancaria were already scattered across the globe and the Seraphim were still protecting them. However this gives new trouble with the existence of Ogre's in Sacred 2. According to Sacred lore, Orcs were enslaved a time by Dark Elves. Ogre's were the product of breeding enslaved Orc warriors by the Dark Elves ("The ogres are a variant that arose out of the breeding of warriors among the salve Orcs of Mhurag-Nar during their enslavement at the hands of the Dark Elves' empire. Similarities in the word Nar, used by the Dark Elves, and the Orc word Nur, both used to stem from this era of slavery."). That is impossible to reconcile with their existence in Sacred 2 without putting the existence of the Dark Elves before Sacred 2 which leaves the question why we never see or hear from them in Sacred 2. It's possible that even the war to retrieve the elements of Ancaria has already happened and the Dark Elves are just waiting and plotting in the shadow to regain their strength (maybe having some sort of connection with the Inquisitors). However that means the split in the Elves has occured much much earlier, even before the Dragon Wars (going back to the Gargoyle book). Also take note that Mhurag-Nar is a direct reference to the lands of Sacred since Mhurag-Nar is the location where Braverock Castle was later built on if my memory serves me correct. That would mean the areas of the time of Sacred were at least already settled and in contact with the settlements in the Sacred 2 era.

I get the impression that pretty much no one knew how to operate the Great Machine, let alone maintain all of it. So I don't see them repairing the pipes. Also the machine posed a great risk. Giving someone demi-god like powers is a frightening thing, especially falling into the wrong hands. I think the species in Sacred 2 actually even might go as far as to destroy it in the end if the true purposes becomes known amongst the general populace. DeMordrey's name still makes no sense to me. As I said in my first post, it is possible for a name to survive 2000 years, but I find it highly unlikely. It is of course a nice nod to the original Sacred, having a villain with the same name as one of the main antagonists of the first game. I recall from Underworld that it is actually supposed to be underground. Valor (or rather his ghost) mentions a few portals that lead back to the upper world (as you eventually travel to the upper world for a bit, the Pirate islands for instance). It seems the Underworld was intended to be a physical underworld. A mention is made of Shaddar's tower going far into the Underworld, which makes the tower a physical connection between a world above ground and below ground. Everything in Sacred and Underworld points to that as far as I can tell. There is also the Depths of Death which seem to be an analogy for concepts like Hell or Hades, places that are associated with being subterranean. I'm really not convinced that the Dryads and Nuk-Nuk we meet in Underworld are simply the same moved to a different continent. It also doesn't explain the probably Dwarven architecture we see in Sacred 2. And yes, the Dwarfs are a big question mark. I recall they laboured for Anducar to build his fortress in the Depths of Death, then he annihilated them. Some Dwarfs eventually made it to the upper world where they came to the rescue when the Seraphim were utterly defeated by the Dark Elves only to be wiped out by the same Dark Elves in later times. Of course nothing of Sacred 2's story was conceived when they made Underworld so discrepancies are bound to happen, just look at any franchise (Star Trek *coughs*). But those things always bug me as it gives me the feeling they could have paid a little more attention to their story. And Sacred 2's story for now simply doesn't fit with Underworld. I admit that some cataclysmic event that physically buries part of Ancaria below ground seems very far fetched, but right now that seems the only explanation that makes sense (it can even work in the crashed ship, I know that easter egg btw, it might have crashed in times of Sacred 2). I wasn't aware that High Elves and Dryads are related, I just suspected it. Where does that info come from? I haven't seen anything regarding that yet, however I also haven't done any of the regular jungle quests yet. I just know the Elves are tolerated by the Dryads in their lands for keeping ships at bay. But I have missed a reference yet that gives them a common origin (or maybe I just have missed it, but actually should have seen it). Or is that from the Shadow campaign? I was entertaining the idea that maybe the history told in UW is set even far before Sacred 2. A tribe of Garema, Dryads and Dwarfs might have made it to the surface after all, explaining how they are in the upper world without contradicting anything told in UW. It would even explain the Dwarven architecture found in both UW and Sacred 2. One could assume the Dwarfs started building things again once in the world above. The similarity in the jungle might be explained by the fact both Dryads and Garema looked for something that reminded them of home in Menelgond. It would make all a lot more sense that some world shifting event and it's possible even the Dryads forgot about their ancient underground history. And we never talk to the Dryads in UW so they wouldn't mention it to us, even if they knew some of their brethren that went topside had survived for at least a time. It doesn't explain the spaceship in UW, but I think it's possible...crash through the planet surface, perhaps in a cavernous area which means it might have enough velocity left to keep crashing into an underground jungle. it doesn't explain the absence of Dryads and Garema in the upper world in Sacred, but it's possibly the quietly died out and all records of them were lost. The Dryads might even have merged with a faction of Elves to become the Wood Elves closing a circle (Dryads and High Elves split off at first, only to join one another again later). And maybe Anducar used the Great Machine at some point in history, either before or after Sacred 2 (hell, maybe even be the Shadow Inquisitor doing the Shadow Campaign), becoming very powerful but also twisted (his demon form) by the T-energy.

Since Sacred history got me thinking last night, I reinstalled Sacred Underworld and dug up my old save games. I plan to work on the books found in Sacred. I've changed the existing stub page Books to a list of all books my main toon has. It's just a bunch of red links so far (except the Book of the Seraphims which already existed), but I plan to fill those over time. Take note that this might be a long term project, doing a few books at a time so I don't turn crazy. I plan to look at my other toons to see if they have read books I haven't. Once the pages are made we might have to do some ordering, especially in the history section. I divided them in books found in Sacred and those found in Underworld, but we might scratch that. As far as the books about the history of the Underworld go, I tried to put them in chronological order, but I might have made mistakes. Those are the first links. What follows are books about places, races and persons.

I think character customization is important. The game should not suffer for it, but it certainly is more that than the proverbial cherry on top to me. When I play a game, I like to immerse into it. For that, I need a character that I can really identify with and being able to customize a character really helps with that. I didn't put that much thought in S1 toons but when I started playing Guild Wars and made my first (and still my primary) toon, I put a lot of thought into it. What would I like to see me as if I were in that world? What did I liked playing in other games? As far as RPGs goes, Paladin usually is my preferred class (I played Diablo II almost exclusive on my Pal), but my first "toon" was a Rogue in Diablo I. So I stuck with the bow theme and choose a Ranger since there was no real Paladin class. Then I spend nearly 30 minutes coming up with a name. I like Tolkienesque names for my toons, but of course all the "real" Tolkien names were taken (I wanted to name her Luthien Tinuviel and was also angry the game wouldn't let me proper accentuate the vowels ). In the end I had to settle for a "hybrid" name and so Melian Arfeiniel was born (yes, I prefer to play girls when I can choose a gender). I also put thought into her looks. I missed that a lot in Sacred and Sacred 2. Of course the Seraphim was THE toon for me to play, being a Paladin type of girl, how could I pass on that? But I would have loved to customize her a bit, change her height, play around with her hair colour (sadly my toon was created in Sacred 2 and I wasn't able to customize her. I can change her hair colour in the command box when in game, but I have to do that every time) and such. It's not a feature that, when it's not there makes me say "OK, forget it, I'm not going to play this game", but it makes a game much more fun for me when it is there. I haven't put the same time and thought into my Sacred 2 toons as I did in my GW toons, mainly because I wasn't able to customize them anyway, so my seraphim now has the generic name "Fogelina" (also a name I've given to most of my Guild Wars mules which eventually became full fledged toons, kinda regret now not giving them a proper name, but I'm NOT deleting them since Guild Wars has the practice of handing out birthday rewards to toons). Man, I've been blabbering again. So in short, character customization to me is important, almost a must, but only almost as it would not stop me from playing a game, but I can immerse myself more into a game if I can customize my toon slightly.

I've not come across the true purpose of the Great Machine indeed, but it doesn't change the fact that Elves used it to propel their civilization into prosperity and with the machine turned off, that prosperity will probably dwindle. I was thinking about the same lines as far as the division of the Dark Elves goes btw, the Dark Elves being descendants from the Inquisitors. Multiple continents has also occurred to me. That leaves the DeMordrey family name which still posts a problem to me. Not only would it have to survive 2000 years, but also spread to another continent. And there's still the thing with the Dryads and Garema and the architecture found. While I think it's possible for a civilization to have been spread amongst several continents and left their ruins there (the temple ruins in the Jungle) I still wonder how they ended up in the Underworld as well. I really hope Sacred 3 will tap into that piece of Ancarian history. I also wonder if there's a connection between the Dryads and the Elves. The Wood Elves from Sacred are more less what the Dryads are in Sacred 2 (and Underworld). I think those races used to be one and the same, branching off at some point. Probably when the High Elves began using the T-energy to transform their civilization; the Dryads might have preferred not to use it, maybe sensing it's potential danger or simply preferring remaining close to nature. I wonder if in the days of Sacred there were still Dryads living above ground. And if not why they chose to move underground and how the Underworld came into being at the first place. And I've seen the final cutscene with narration (on youtube in poor quality) but I indeed still miss the story before that. I'm sure the Inquisitors found out about the nature of the machine and that this will be unveiled in the Shadow campaign. I can't wait to play it, but I want to properly finish the campaign with my seraphim first (I still have the Dryad Island left to explore and do quests and the expansion areas).

@belgarathmth T-energy was causing all kinds of problems, destroying the land and the inhabitants. The Great Machine has been around for a very long time so I guess it's safe to say there's no one left who knows how to operate it, maintain it properly, let alone fix things that are broken (and even if they could figure it out, how to get the spare parts?). So they would have to make a trade-off, leave the damaged machine running or shut it down, knowing it will propel the High Elven civilization into chaos. I'm not sure what choice I would make if I were to make it, but I can see how someone might think it's better to just destroy the machine so the world can heal. Leaving the machine running might invite a cosmic cataclysm that wipes out everything (in fact you might draw an analogy with the renewed debate about nuclear energy, some people saying we should get rid of it, even though that will cost us in our welfare, while others say we just depend on it too much and must accept the risks). And I guess I'm like you, I prefer playing for the "good" side as well if I am given a choice. However I want to play through the Shadow campaign, just for the heck of it.

@Steerpike You mention some good things that slipped my memory. I don't know how many books my S1 toons picked up. I haven't have it installed at the moment. Maybe it might be a nice thing to reinstall it (have my savegames safely tucked away) and transcribe some books. The Dragon Wars probably explain the final in Sacred 2 with the huge fortress and the many dragon bones (I liked the spikes in the fortress walls, already wondering "probably AA defense" only to find impaled dragons later on). Yes, the split of the Elves must occur after Sacred 2. I wonder of the Ice Elves from Sacred Plus fit in. I'm not sure much thought was put into them lorewise. The Wood Elves probably secluded themselves at some point. From the books in Sacred it seems like the shunned humans mostly. They became a bit more prominent when a human prince (Valorian? The name eludes me right now) rescued a Wood Elf from DeMordreyans, nearly died in the process and then allied with them to defeat DeMordrey at Faerie's Crossing in Mascarrel (from which the town gets the name; Faerie being another word for Elf). The Dark Elves are shown to be much more vicious, probably why they became the dominant force. I can imagine they might have decimated the Wood Elf population. The Wood Elves probably withdrew to the forests, preferring to be closer with nature after the decline of their High Elf civilization and a kin strife. Humans might have indeed become the dominant faction by simply watching from the sidelines. Although we do know the humans had their fair share of conflict as well, mainly with the Orcs, driving them to the desert (from Sacred 1 lore). The Kobolds somehow got lost along the way as well, maybe entering into a war with the Goblins, leaving the ladder the victor. I wasn't aware Sacred 2 was set 2000 years before Sacred, I must have missed that part somewhere, thanks for filling that blank. As far as Menelgond goes (thanks for reminding me off the name!), parts of it, especially the starting area bear a very close resemblances to the Jungle in Sacred 2. That can't be a coincidence. Either the Garema and Dryads were forced Underground somehow (the Garema never having seen sunlight might still be explained by thick jungle foilage, good observation) but it's still remarkable that the ruins found there are identical to ruins found 2000 years earlier. They were ruins then already, thus probably build by an older civilization. Especially the Shadow campaign leaves some options there. It's quite possible that someone imbued with T-energy might be responsible for a cataclysm that sundered Ancaria and put portions of it below the surface. Anducar might have moved to the Underworld after that...or maybe even be that "evil" person who absorbed the T-energy, turning him into a demon.

Since this is bugging me, I watched a youtube clip about the Shadow ending. Of course that opens up whole new possibilities. Suppose the Shadow ending were "canon", one evil überbeing could be responsible for the whole Underworld conundrum.