Item modifiers pages suggestion

[Nihilith 0]

Hi there

 

I was working on a chart around item modifiers. Some Modifiers appears only late in the game, on some pieces of equipment and only if a mastery unlock them. I take Damage Mitigation as an example, as we know it depends on Armor Mastery and only spawns, afaik, on chest and shoulder armor pieces.

 

So I decided to make a chart, visible on my personnal page on the wiki here

 

To sum up a bit (and the chart may be lacking some info as well)

 

For any item modifier page, we should include these 2 charts

 

First one for armors, the seconds for weapons.

 

How to read the charts :

 

First column, the modifier name (self explanatory)

 

next columns, first 4 rows. The mininum item level this mod has been seen on, regarding if it was dropped or bargained, below this, the min value seen for this mod, and the max one, for the two options as well

 

"Spawns on" section. For each armor/weapon type, we can check if it spawns on junk, normal, blue, rare, set, unique or legendary items if dropped and grey/white/blue/yellow items if bargained

Anywhere on the chart, we can include a numbered comment, detailled in the last section, as the shrunken head in my exemple, or the set armor piece

 

Though I think it's easily read, any comment welcome if :

- whether or not these charts should be included on the item modifier pages

- these charts are easy enough to read

- these charts lack information

- maybe we could include a pair of chart for every difficulty level... but the pages will be huge ! I don't have a clue if a mod can, for example only appear on a niob item, even if the plat version of the item is the same level/rarity/type. Keeping DM as example, it only spawns on a yellow level 80 armor piece in niob, but the same yellow level 80 armor piece in plat will never show off this mod ! (illustrative values of course)

 

I think it may be a good trade helper, knowing you must only look at a defined rarity/item type/item level at the stores can speed the trade process a bit Even for item farming, you won't have to check all pieces on the ground my 2 cents

[Antitrust 32]

Nice

 

All mods can spawn on all difficulties, they just increase in later ones.

[Nihilith 0]

Nice

 

All mods can spawn on all difficulties, they just increase in later ones.

 

Thanks Anti

 

So we could stay at 1 pair of chart per mod page

[gogoblender 3,078]

It`s a good idea. I think we should bring the focus to gathering the data for the tables as they are large, before putting them directly onto a modifier page. Like the way Antitrust offered links to full display of skills progression with his tables. They are huge and can be laggy...they work well as a link. What you can try is a link to page solely for the table, and then when enough data gets filled into it so that it looks fuller, we can see how it would look directly on the page.

 

As well, we are using a format for tables which is standardized over the wiki. You can take a look at Schot`s code for this and it can be used here.

 

Looks like this idea will have utilty for players, nihilith.

 

Nice work

 

 

gogo

[Nihilith 0]

Thanks Gogo,

 

I'll take a look at Schot's templates. So far, I focused on the cell merging and a wiki-way to implement all the datas I wanted to gather. But I think you're right regarding the link to a page that contains only the charts. It will be easy to <include> them later on the mod page.

 

Cheers

 

 

EDIT : Updated to SacredWiki Template. Chart stripped a bit to a less large size, waiting for comments.

 

NEW EDIT : Charts are on a separate page, accessed via a link on the modifier page. check it out --> "Combat Art" +X

Edited October 23, 2009 by Nihilith

[Nihilith 0]

lil up due to updates

[Schot 407]

Doh, just saw this now. Haha. Here's a bit of finking from me Nihilith.

 

Had some time to check out your table last night and I'm still digesting it but on the whole it seems as though the information your table is presenting might be better translated in the form of a phrase rather than a table. That's just my initial thought. When I first had a look at it I wasn't sure how to interpret the information. I did spend a lot of time breaking it down after which I had created written descriptions in my head to help me interpret. I get it now and it is in fact simple enough to understand but as someone who wasn't part of it's creation, an outsider if you will, it can be confusing.

 

On the whole I think that the data you're presenting could be better suited in 2 formats. For the section that informs readers which items the modifier can be found on I would write it out and for the section that informs readers about item min / max values to expect I would table that. As an example:

 

Values and Availabilty

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Item Modifier "Combat Art +X" can appear on any armor or weapon that are of a quality rare, set, unique or legendary.

 

[tr][/tr][tr][/tr][tr][/tr]

Combat Arts +X

Bronze

Silver

Gold

Platinum

Niobium

Min Value

1

2

3

4

1

Max Value

2

5

6

8

12

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I think that breaking down the data on "What Items can (Insert Item Modifier Name) be found on?" into a simple phrase might be more effective. For the Item Modifier "Conversion Physical to Fire +X%" it will be written differently; The Item Modifier "Conversion Physical to Fire +X%" can only be found on Lava Chunks, Gloves and Batteries.

 

The basic idea is to present the info in both the most condensed form possible as well as the most reader friendly. Again I think the info you're putting together is very worth while and can be placed directly on each of the item modifier's pages but before going that route I'd really like to see a condensed version of your data.

 

Dropped vs. Bargained values I believe are the same. What's makes them different when gaming is that dropped items tend to be of much higher item level than when bought from a merchant. Survival Bonus spawns higher level enemies which in turn drop higher level items which have modifier values pertaining to item level. For example gogo's Level 144 Bargainer can buy items that are levels 143-156 but when he gets a drop from an enemy the item level is around 170 because of his Survival Bonus. Is it possible you misinterpreted this dynamic?

 

New table work is awesome btw. Just saw it.

[Nihilith 0]

Already working on it Schot

 

But in fact, difficulty level doesn't influence the min/max values, but the item level does. So this matches your work around value/item level you posted regarding relics and so on. So this topic become obsolete and you got a lot more work around it

So we must know, for each mod, which item level is the break point between a value and another. I think it will be faster to disassemble the game code and study it

 

@ gogo : According to Schot's point of view, you'd better delete the page I created lol. Still have the charts on my personnal page

Edited October 23, 2009 by Nihilith

[Schot 407]

Already working on it Schot

 

But in fact, difficulty level doesn't influence the min/max values, but the item level does. So this matches your work around value/item level you posted regarding relics and so on. So this topic become obsolete and you got a lot more work around it

So we must know, for each mod, which item level is the break point between a value and another. I think it will be faster to disassemble the game code and study it

 

@ gogo : According to Schot's point of view, you'd better delete the page I created lol. Still have the charts on my personnal page

 

Oh man... I was thinking about that post I made a few days ago. I think I almost cried, haha. yup, it's going to be a big re-write. I might even drop +Skills from the table and maybe replace it with Bargaining. Bleh... Why did they have to go and change the game, lol.

 

Regarding the effect of difficulty on item values I thought that difficulty had a BIG impact on modifier values? For example in the post I made you can see that in Silver a Relic needs to be level 30 in order to have +3 whereas in Niobium the Relic can have +3 at a mere level 2. It's a strategy many Bargainers *cough* exploit *cough in order to get the best values possible. Campaigning a level 2 character up to Niob sure isn't very fun but the shopping is soooo worth it.

 

Table for Optimizing on the Bargain Skill

[Nihilith 0]

Alright...

 

The more info I get into, the more complex my working sheets is lol.

And do bargaining level also influence the mod, or only its probability to be spawned ?

 

I mean :

 

Assuming the mod spawns in both case

level 2 Bargainer (bargaining level 2), max value found for the mod = +1

level 2 bargainer (bargaining level 6), max value found for the mod = +2

same item level, because same level shopper

 

Assuming we don't know if the mod spawns

level 2 bargainer (bargaining level 2) : can't shop for the mod

level 2 bargainer (bargaining level 6) : can shop for the mod

Availability is screwed up by bargaining level

 

So mod value is item level/type related and difficulty related, that's what we know.

Is it bargaining level related ?

 

Mod availability is item type related (damage mitigation is a good example). That's sure.

Is it bargaining level, item level and difficulty relative ?

 

Does a sword need to be at least level 15 to show up DeathBlow if dropped, but the rule is broken if a high bargaining shopper shops for it at, say, level 10 ? (S1 used to spawns mods in a random way when shopping with a high trading level, and most of all, put mods value to an insane amount)

 

So many questions and so lil time

 

Add to that that some mods are scalable according to lores/difficulty level (set bonuses, am I right ?)/mastery, should we focus on base values, and by all means inspect the objects with a non "lored" character !

 

... if someone has enough courage to write the equation down...

 

Remember, never ask me about mechanics, I never have any answer, but always a bunch of question to add !

 

NO, not the straight jacket, not again !

Edited October 23, 2009 by Nihilith

[Schot 407]

NO, not the straight jacket, not again !

 

Come along now Nihilith. It's time fer yer nap. ^^

 

 

Bargaining is ultimately probability as you say. The chance to find the best values. Which probably means you'd need a bargainer, (read as several Bargainers at varying levels, eh heh...). As for Skill influenced modifiers I'd document their values before skill related bonuses. Set item bonuses I'd leave out. They're a very unique instance but... I don't think we have a page about Set Item bonuses specifically so if you wanted to document them you could do it on a new page about Set Item bonuses. That would probably be easiest. Run now while you still can nihilith!

With regards to your Level 2 Bargainer scenario it is an extreme comparison. Bargaining at level 2 is essentially at it's highest power in terms of probability. So it's a bit of an unfair comparison for that poor Level 2 non-Bargainer. At level 2 it's a bit like this. Non-Bargainer's chance to spawn +1 is 1 in 1,000,000 chances. Bargainer's chance to spawn +1 is 1 in 10 chances. A Non-Bargainer's chance to spawn +1 is so unlikely that we may as well say that there's no chance at all. Of course I'd have to check the merchants 1,000,000 times to actually prove that. I like you Nihilth but I really don't want to end up in the crazy farm. been there, done that. A few times, lol.

 

Availability of modifier certainly is item type specific which in some, (most?), cases simplifies things in terms of documentation. Life Leech +% for example seems to appear on only Two-Handed weapons.

 

 

Work with "best conditions" values I'd say. Players wanna see the best possible values after all.

[Antitrust 32]

But in fact, difficulty level doesn't influence the min/max values, but the item level does.

They both influence it, which is why I recommend this kind of documenting only for bonuses that are modified by skills. They are not affected by item levels, so you don't need to do that much work. In the end, we can live without knowing that at item level X you get Y deathblow. Fully testing it might be more time consuming than it would benefit anyone*.

 

These details can also change in different patches, and now we have two game versions, 2.43 and Ice and Blood. No point going into that kind of detail for both.

 

Basically, devs knew about information overload, which is why they hid so much from us. They hid a bit too much though

 

 

 

*skills/Combat Art mods can be easier. You just need to see at what levels any bonus to a skill spawns, since they all share their values (this might be changed in Ice and Blood).