locolagarto 15 Posted June 15, 2010 Share Posted June 15, 2010 Can someone help me find this topic, I remember reading it last year. It made a point of focus skills get the most bang for the buck with 21 points if you aren't going to master them. I don't remember who wrote it or when but I need to re-read it as it is the reference for a new build I am working on. Link to comment
Furian67 15 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 (edited) Ya I remember something about that. Something to do with biochemical calculations... Quack... A bunch of really cool looking math stuff ... Quack... Buncha stuff that zoomed way over my head then I saw it. If your not going to master a skill and take it to 75 points t least put 21 points into it to get the most bang for your buck. Edited June 16, 2010 by Furian67 Link to comment
gogoblender 3,070 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 I wish I could find that topic now. I mean...if you think abut it... split up the twenty one amongst the last few points closing in on any mastery...at that point each point you add means so little to the whole total value of the skill... surely swinging them over to at least 21 points of a skill that's been one pointed makes senses. However, those few last painful points from 70 - 75 ...so sweet! oh how glorious gogo Link to comment
Ryanrocker 200 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 I believe Antitrust's Queen of Blades build mentioned something along those lines. It said 20 instead of 21, but perhaps thats what we're thinking about? Link to comment
locolagarto 15 Posted June 16, 2010 Author Share Posted June 16, 2010 I found it here: Mastery of Focus Skills - using nonlinear regression tool for skill breakpoints The basic idea was regen bonus from Focus skills. at 21 points +all skills is as good as it gets until after mastery (was the general impression I got). then mastery bumps the formula. what I am more curious about is the CA level without penalty, which is based on character level and Focus skill. at level 200 with 200 hard points in the focus the penalty level is 98. I need to see what it would be with 21 points. will it make much difference? I have level 200 test chars at home so when I get to my PC I will do a little test. My hope is that if you don't need the regen bonus, and the "focus level" at 200 with or without mastery is almost the same. then the points may be better spent elsewhere. Link to comment
locolagarto 15 Posted June 16, 2010 Author Share Posted June 16, 2010 Well, that was an interesting test. At level 200 with 1 point into Focus skill. the LWP(level without penalty) was 52. with 21 points into focus the LWP went to 61 with 75 points into focus the LWP went to 74 Based on this.. it seems that at early levels ( 1-100) it doesn't seem to make any sense to invest heavily in focus. at later levels once more vital skills (defense, damage, utility) are mastered then sure. But Focuses at low level seem to only be good for mod points. which also die off after level 21 or so. Link to comment
Furian67 15 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Interesting. So If I apply this to my current build, Ultimate Warrior I can keep the current skills chosen where they are and change the order in which I master them. Like taking everything to mastery before Death Warrior Focus and Malevolent Champion Focus in which case they will be mastered (if I decide to do that) at 8th and 9th Mastery. Link to comment
locolagarto 15 Posted June 16, 2010 Author Share Posted June 16, 2010 Interesting. So If I apply this to my current build, Ultimate Warrior I can keep the current skills chosen where they are and change the order in which I master them. Like taking everything to mastery before Death Warrior Focus and Malevolent Champion Focus in which case they will be mastered (if I decide to do that) at 8th and 9th Mastery. Thats what I'm thinking! Link to comment
colif 36 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 I thought the main benefit of focus skills early on is to reduce regen, not to let you pump runes. They did everything in their powers to avoid people pumping runes. Regens start out high/damage low. As you level, they balance out and reverse. This is why I use R00sters template (his old one, not since he rethought skills) to design Shadow Warriors, get the focus skills early and get them to a nice level before concentrating on everything else. Of all my SW's I have never bothered getting a focus skill to 75 anyway, there are other ways to battle regen later on, and plenty more deserving skills. Link to comment
locolagarto 15 Posted June 16, 2010 Author Share Posted June 16, 2010 I thought the main benefit of focus skills early on is to reduce regen, not to let you pump runes. They did everything in their powers to avoid people pumping runes. Regens start out high/damage low. As you level, they balance out and reverse. This is why I use R00sters template (his old one, not since he rethought skills) to design Shadow Warriors, get the focus skills early and get them to a nice level before concentrating on everything else. Of all my SW's I have never bothered getting a focus skill to 75 anyway, there are other ways to battle regen later on, and plenty more deserving skills. Pre-ice and blood when we focus on all skills. And even recently I would have agreed. But now I am concentrating on armor lore and rph for my low level regens. And using buff suits for high level buff bonuses. The point of the math is that between 21 and 75 there is a minimal amount of increase in either regent bonus or focus level. Link to comment
Furian67 15 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Agreed Loco. Come to find out tonight my newly made Warrior is pretty much doing this tactic already and I didn't realize it, working Tactics Lore (mod points), Sword weapons( attack and casting speed), and Armor Lore( regen times), I have 5 points into Death Warrior to access Concentration and One point into the rest. I one shot kill almost everything at level 41 now. Been running the wastelands hill and the guardians since I turned 30. Using a Buff suit as explained Here Is truelly awesome. I'm thinking what is truelly inspiring for making builds post Ice & Blood is to think outside the box. Forget most of the stuff we learned before Ice & Blood came out. And use what we have now. Like the thread Here about most and least useful skills this has really opened my eyes to new ways to build and become even more powerfull without + all Skills. Link to comment
Shattered Rift 2 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Great thread, Loco. I've been working on a triple-Aspect pure-spellcaster Temple Guardian build, and I've been wondering what the full consequences of sacrificing (or neglecting) the Focus skills would be. Link to comment
claudius 104 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Was the math done with pre Ice and Blood jewelry/+skills levels? It might change if the available + skills goes down drastically:) Link to comment
essjayehm 58 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 I just did some work in this area. I left Gruesome Focus at 2 pts (with 20 in tactics for mods) and bumped Astral Focus to 25. Then I sandbagged most of my points (pumping Constitution only) until I got to 75. I have the exact figures at home, but I have come to the same conclusion... that Focus skills can be left at 1 (or 5) points, if using an allskills-type toon (nearly every socket with allskills). Please note this was console version! At level 75, there was a 6-level HCALWP difference between GI and AS, with +70-ish allskills/ca skills. Pumping ASF to mastery ended up making a difference of 20 levels (IIRC, GI was 31, AS was 51). The differences I got after munching runes, and the increase from the buff suit did not explicitly warrant getting ASF to mastery, since I could get a huge defensive boost from pumping Armour and Toughness, or get Concentration mastery. I'm planning to re-test at level 100-ish (the level I expect to finish Niob), but I will bring in my figures and report back tomorrow. Link to comment
locolagarto 15 Posted June 16, 2010 Author Share Posted June 16, 2010 Was the math done with pre Ice and Blood jewelry/+skills levels? It might change if the available + skills goes down drastically? The amount of +all skills won't change the math, only the maximum level of the skill. It wouldn't make much difference. obviously more +allskills will raise the LWP higher. But the math showed diminishing returns. So save your points for Focus mastery until later in game and get your essential skills mastered first. eventually those 10-20 ca levels will be much coveted. But you won't have suffered any from waiting. Link to comment
essjayehm 58 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 eventually those 10-20 ca levels will be much coveted. But you won't have suffered any from waiting. I am thinking these words are quite true. Time will tell (doesn't it always?) Hrm... a little over 2 years old, and we are still discovering tidbits here and there... (even things that didn't change too much over all the patches, addons, etc...) What other ideas can we turn upside-down? Time WILL tell. Link to comment
FrostElfGuard 9 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 So now we're looking at the min part of min-max character development. I believe the devs programmed the game to be played by all skill levels of players. That goes from the very serious players like soldats down to the casual type players like myself. The serious players always seek to push the envelope, get the maximum benefit in targeted aspects of the game. The more casual players generally play the game through on bronze and are done. In order for the casual players to have a pleasant experience, the game has to build safeguards in so that players (to some extent) are protected from making too weak a character. Thus the design where character level affects how combat arts work, also the design where character attributes are automatically incremented as the character levels. It helps keep the min and max within a certain, playable, fun range of each other. Of course, the max-seeking players come up with ideas that take advantage of design flaws... which, in Sacred and Sacred2 were dealt with by the patching process. Short version: character level has been factored into many things in the game, right down to drop amounts and quality when opening barrels and chests in the game. (You can thank the Robbers of Braverock Castle for this!) Link to comment
locolagarto 15 Posted June 16, 2010 Author Share Posted June 16, 2010 So now we're looking at the min part of min-max character development. I believe the devs programmed the game to be played by all skill levels of players. That goes from the very serious players like soldats down to the casual type players like myself. The serious players always seek to push the envelope, get the maximum benefit in targeted aspects of the game. The more casual players generally play the game through on bronze and are done. In order for the casual players to have a pleasant experience, the game has to build safeguards in so that players (to some extent) are protected from making too weak a character. Thus the design where character level affects how combat arts work, also the design where character attributes are automatically incremented as the character levels. It helps keep the min and max within a certain, playable, fun range of each other. Of course, the max-seeking players come up with ideas that take advantage of design flaws... which, in Sacred and Sacred2 were dealt with by the patching process. Short version: character level has been factored into many things in the game, right down to drop amounts and quality when opening barrels and chests in the game. (You can thank the Robbers of Braverock Castle for this!) In a way yes, but this is also being implemented by furian and I to get strong characters to niob as well. (so we are maximising here too) by investing our level 1-100 points into defense and damage skills instead of focus skills, we will be much much stronger characters when it really counts level 100 +. Link to comment
FrostElfGuard 9 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 (edited) In a way yes, but this is also being implemented by furian and I to get strong characters to niob as well. (so we are maximising here too) by investing our level 1-100 points into defense and damage skills instead of focus skills, we will be much much stronger characters when it really counts level 100 +. I agree that you guys are in the expert range of the players of the game... min-max (comes from Dungeons and Dragons paper version of the game) means you sculpt your characters to maximize advantages... and takes your 'min' lumps along the way. By figuring out your minimum level for skills (stopping at 21), you're setting a min. From my limited understanding of the graphs and ideas presented, level 21 gives you a roughly 30% bonus to regen... which is about 1/2 way to the max 74% available in a skill without mastery... since the skills are limited at just under 75% before the mastery factor. Sacred (1 & 2) gives bigger effect to the first n levels of skill--though the devs tweaked this with mastery in Sacred 2. I find it odd that so many min-max (expert) players are taking skills to mastery and no further. The benefits of mastery of 6 skills should be weighed against weighed against the benefit from mastering a few---and maxing the, say, for instance, damage producing skills (lores, ancient magic). Some year when I get up to niob I'll have to investigate it (unless someone else takes that torch). Edited June 16, 2010 by FrostElfGuard Link to comment
gogoblender 3,070 Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 I find it odd that so many min-max (expert) players are taking skills to mastery and no further. I think it's because of what we're solving for. More than just creating a perfect build...we also want to make sure we're happy while we're playing it within a rushed amount of time With my last build ( Secret Agent High Elf), I took Constitution mastery fourth, because I wanted to do something I hadn't done before, which was begin taking out Guardians at a much lower level. I feel that players can play because they are looking for bells and whistles. A number that rolls over, a new graphical flash, a perceived increase in damage. Once you get into the long levels after 150 interest wanes, it's like you're on a highway, and this is when we begin to yawn and look at other builds. For me, I've come to understand that I am not all that interested in making anything that will get to level 200 anymore, only because after seeing the huge drop in experience that the game gives...I've just figgered I'd rather spend my time making a bunch of fun builds that maybe peak around 100- 150 that I can give good hope to others to create with as well. I'm not sure most players are interested in sticking to builds above 150t hese days... so for peeps like that, choosing skills that effect instant gratification will be a hot choice, as well as perhaps what has become a new, interesting focus for me.... attempting to create builds that peak around 150 and then can crown at that point ^^ The moth that burns half as long burns twice as bright! gogo Link to comment
essjayehm 58 Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 (edited) In a way yes, but this is also being implemented by furian and I to get strong characters to niob as well. (so we are maximising here too) by investing our level 1-100 points into defense and damage skills instead of focus skills, we will be much much stronger characters when it really counts level 100 +. I agree that you guys are in the expert range of the players of the game... min-max (comes from Dungeons and Dragons paper version of the game) means you sculpt your characters to maximize advantages... and takes your 'min' lumps along the way. By figuring out your minimum level for skills (stopping at 21), you're setting a min. From my limited understanding of the graphs and ideas presented, level 21 gives you a roughly 30% bonus to regen... which is about 1/2 way to the max 74% available in a skill without mastery... since the skills are limited at just under 75% before the mastery factor. Sacred (1 & 2) gives bigger effect to the first n levels of skill--though the devs tweaked this with mastery in Sacred 2. I find it odd that so many min-max (expert) players are taking skills to mastery and no further. The benefits of mastery of 6 skills should be weighed against weighed against the benefit from mastering a few---and maxing the, say, for instance, damage producing skills (lores, ancient magic). Some year when I get up to niob I'll have to investigate it (unless someone else takes that torch). The best enjoyment I have gotten out of this game has been dis-proving a few of the "MUST"'s of Sacred. I was not able to get thru Gold difficulty before I found Dark Matters/Wiki; then started using the theories that 80% of the builds were based on. Those ideas got me into Niob at "low" levels (80-90). Now, I realize that a lot of these ideas are of the min/max variety, and that in all likelihood, a balanced approach is probably the best. Especially when playing Hardcore. One "Sacred" moment and months of work, items, etc are GONE. So, yeah... it's fun trying to get to 1 million damage... but at the same time, if that attack gets reflected... poof. So I've had my fun with min/max... now I want to see if I can get thru Niob without any masteries. I really don't think its' too much trouble on console, with the tricks we have to use... but it is an interesting concept. OOPS - forgot my homework...er... the bear ate it...er... sorry I left the level 75 focus stats at home. Tomorrow, I swear! Edited June 17, 2010 by essjayehm Link to comment
claudius 104 Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 (edited) The derivative is the slope of the graph. So if we graph y coordinate CA level (or recharge -) and x coordinate in skill points the derivative is the slope. That would be one useful piece of information. Now if you graph the slope the second derivative is the slope of the graph (of the slope versus skill points). Now what happens with bonus from skills? It increases (derivative positive) but that decreases in magnitude (second derivative is negative). I would be interested how that 20 figure relates to the 1st 2nd and possibly third derivatives. My interest is both to rekindle dead braincells that once studied math and to know for sure that 20 is the magic number (I thought it was 3).. My rule of thumb is that do to the diminishing returns above 120 you should almost always master all 10 skills. Unless a build really does not need some feature (blackmith just for socketing for example)... But thats with respect to a level 200 character. Edited June 17, 2010 by claudius Link to comment
locolagarto 15 Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 The derivative is the slope of the graph. So if we graph y coordinate CA level (or recharge -) and x coordinate in skill points the derivative is the slope. That would be one useful piece of information. Now if you graph the slope the second derivative is the slope of the graph (of the slope versus skill points). Now what happens with bonus from skills? It increases (derivative positive) but that decreases in magnitude (second derivative is negative). I would be interested how that 20 figure relates to the 1st 2nd and possibly third derivatives. My interest is both to rekindle dead braincells that once studied math and to know for sure that 20 is the magic number (I thought it was 3).. My rule of thumb is that do to the diminishing returns above 120 you should almost always master all 10 skills. Unless a build really does not need some feature (blackmith just for socketing for example)... But thats with respect to a level 200 character. Dude your gonna have to draw me some pictures! my last math class was 20 years ago. Link to comment
FrostElfGuard 9 Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Perhaps I can become unconfused here. When you master a skill... you get a skill bonus. When you add more levels (past mastery) in that skill, you get a 'renewed' value per skill level... such that there still is benefit from adding points to the skill. The reason someone might not want to add more skill points beyond mastery is a) +X all skills from armour gives you the boost b) completing more masteries is more important for the the big bump each one provides Once masteries are all made, then you're out of skill points. Is that how things are? Did I get unconfused? Link to comment
locolagarto 15 Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 Perhaps I can become unconfused here. When you master a skill... you get a skill bonus. When you add more levels (past mastery) in that skill, you get a 'renewed' value per skill level... such that there still is benefit from adding points to the skill. The reason someone might not want to add more skill points beyond mastery is a) +X all skills from armour gives you the boost b) completing more masteries is more important for the the big bump each one provides Once masteries are all made, then you're out of skill points. Is that how things are? Did I get unconfused? Yes there is additional bonus beyond level 75 but unless you are running a very simple build with very few skills, most of us would get more bang per skill point buck out of mastering all our skills first before taking any past mastery. There is diminishing returns however, and hard points past mastery are rare and valuable. so + skills has in the past been the best way to take advantage of skills past mastery. As your 10th mastery comes at level 166 or so. Most of us wont see it. Link to comment
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