Charon117

They still drop the exact same values I would also get for AllDmg% ones, afaik.

@Androdion the process you are describing is called discovery in games, and its a very important part. I also think that we shouldnt overbalance the game. Why ? If we would balance out every modifier to be of equal worth, than no player would have an epiphany of how valuable something is. The more we balance, the more we remove the discovery process of the player, because we pre-chew everything in the game and the player never needs to discover something important ( because everything would be equally important in the game - thanks to our balancing). So while I think 30% is the perfect balance point for RPH, nothing says it needs to be perfectly balanced. We could move it up to 40% and the player would have a nice discovery process of how good the RPH modifier really is. @FlixNow that I know you can weave magic, can you tell me where I could find the +elemental dmg%(fire,arcane,ice,posion) on rings and amulets. I always felt like they were underused, because for every +eDmg% there was an equivalent of +all Dmg% modifier which just dropped more rarely. A little boost to those rings would do good. I think something of +20% - +40%.

@Androdion Take this to your heart. The Reality is, a broken game can still be fun, while a perfectly balanced game might not even be touched. With this in mind the goal of ESP is not going to be to make a perfectly balanced game. In fact, if people want to have a nice experience in vanilla they usually implement certain self-regualting rules on their build. I think these changes dont want to take away the unique place and game changing element a modifier has, but balance it so that other modifiers can still shine under it. Even at 30% RPH is still a complete game changing modifier, but now you can actually use it and not make 60% of the game irrelevant. If you followed the discussion between me and Flix so far you will see that the ultimate goal result of it will be that rings and talisman at 20% will be able to spawn again - and with it introducing a lost variaty which was there before. One of the other things I would like to do would be to remove the Life Leach component of LL%. That is, its still |Dmg%|, but without any healing effect. Sacred 2 revolves around 2 parts. The first is to deal damage, and the second one is to be able to sustain damage. Having both aspects covered hard in one modifier takes away a lot of content, which could otherwise take its place. I think |Dmg%| is a great idea. Yes, I used to think exactly like you. But consider this. In all my time in Sacred 2 I never seen more than 25% of the map. But with EE SuperSpawn Challenge mod I actually cant go rush anything anymore. Every area for me is locked down by its respective boss, and I am forced to explore all the possibilities Sacred 2 has to offer in order to make it. Level 76 and I still havent made it to the Seraphim Island. My map looks totally different now, 90% of accessible area has been visisted at least once, and I write down loot tables for mobs ( if anybody is interested in that, give me a call ). Due to the challenge option I experience the 75% of content I didnt need to touch. And with the added challenge I would like to get a balanced game, so that one modifier doesnt take away what Flixs mod has to offer. You will see all CA in a complete different light than before. No clue how you figured out that thats the bonus, but I guess you looked up the ID. You took 1/3%, but I think 30% is better, especially when you allow rings and amuletts too. I will immediatelly change it to this: newBonus = { -- name = "sb_off_energyleech_whit", rating = 23, basedonskill = "SKILL_INVALID", type = "BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_WHIT", spez = "", spez2 = "", usagebits = 65535, minconstraints = {10,5,0}, difficultyvaluerange0 = {0,8,38}, difficultyvaluerange1 = {1,10,50}, difficultyvaluerange2 = {2,13,62}, difficultyvaluerange3 = {3,15,75}, difficultyvaluerange4 = {4,18,90}, } mgr.createBonus(665, newBonus); Offtopic: You could make the background a bit brighter for <>. Edit: Nvm, the code section looks fine, guess the quote one could use some love. Ontopic: That should immediately make for a better game. Pin me the code when you got the jewels fixed. Please. Im pretty sure Sacred 2 takes more than 1 decimal, but there could be a display discrepancy. Anyway, we will need wait for Flix to implement the jewels again and than look at the tooltip. Also 0.06 RPH ring so soooooooooooooooooooo well balanced.

Not in Flixs EE. He nerfed them so hard. I stil have a talisman with all skill+1 and a ring +2 at level 76 in my build though, so I have to say he balanced them pretty good if I still keep using them. Nothing saying Flix cant integrate a nice rebalance of RPH in EE. Even at 30% they are still op enough that people will use them. Not in the slightest. If Flix doesnt implement it into EE I will implement it into ESP. But for now the modmerging system takes all my attention. Im interested in debate though, and if players have the same view on the topic as I have.

That is exactly my oppinion as well. It bypasses a complete system, the system of balancing rune levels with cooldown times. While having better items and mods is nice as rare loot items, I feel like RPH makes too much of an interesting system obsolete. Here is an example: My Inquisitor focuses mainly on the Inquisition aspect, with the other aspects being support structures. Since I dont main Aspect:Supremacy I eat runes into maelstrom until I have an around a 17 second maelstrom. Strong enough to obliterate groups of enemies, but not being able to spam it makes it a fun and strategic choice for WHEN I cast maelstrom. I recently got Ilgard's Judgment with 1.1s RPH, and it completely destroys the system. Where I once had a 17 cd, I now cast Maelstrom and then RM. RM animation speed is around 0.85s so lets say once every second. 3 hits * 1.1 = 3.3 + 0.85 ~ 4 seconds regeneration for every second. Which means I can cast maelstrom after 4 uses of RM, or 4.25 seconds. Its ... nice, but it feels way too "Just use every spell whenever you like". And RPH is stackable without diminishing returns. The problem is that since I dont main Lore Supremancy Focus, I cant really effectively get my level up, even though I could eat runes "just" to increase my cd. And that is the problem. RPH makes you do things simply so you get the cd up, just so you feel like you take advantage of RHP. I kinda have that picture in my head when a comic figure gets punched through the roof, and the head sticks out. RPH overshoots way too hard and simplifies the meta too much by eliminating the rune system. I honestly didnt have a problem with RPH being on normal rings and amulets, but I propose a nerf to 30% of each originals value. As with the above example this would mean that the 1.1 RPH would be a 0.33 one. With RM casting 3 projectiles this means that for every passing second, an additional second of cd gets deducted, making me able to cast my 17s cd maelstrom in 50% less time, so 8.5s cd, which is still an incredible increase for "just" one mod. If rings and amulets get their PRH back ( I think they should ), we can talk about maybe 20% - 30% of its original value. Maybe 30% for uniques, sets and legendaries and 20% for talisman, rings and other normal items. 30% of its original value is still incredibly good, given that melee chars can calculate the cd a lot better due to their attack hits being instant, than my ranged inquisitor. I just hope this doesnt require somebody to change every single item.

RPH is seriously op. Does anybody plan on doing something about it ?

That is different than ... whatever I remembered it to be. Guess I can only apologise again. Maybe that will teach me that I dont know everything-

Nope. You are saying I have to skill dual wield, in order to dual wield magic staffs ? That is different from melee weapons which dont need the skill to dual wield. Well than I have to apologise to @Androdion it seems like I have demonstrated my lack of knowledge again.

Dude, you cant. Get up to date. CP made basic magic staffs ranged weapons to avoid the bug with RM. Its stated in the patch notes. Go read them. Unless Magic Staff Lore is required to dual wield them, which would be kinda silly. Dont trust the wiki, it is as much out of date as my ex. Unless you are saying only this set can be dual wielded. Which would go against fundamental Sacred 2 logic - ranged weapons cant be dual wielded. I just tested a lvl1 inquisitor, and he cant dual wield mage staffs. Love you and all, but a lot of things have changed ;). Also if Flix confirms it is not an EE bug this can be moved into the CP bug section.

But mage staffs cant be dual wielded ... ? No ranged weapons can be dual wielded ? At least not with the CP.

Bug: "Das Vergangene" (The Past?) for the set scholar of the architect is modified by Dual Wielding instead of Mage staff lore.

@dimitrius154 @Flix Update My playstyle reversed to using magic staff CAs mostly, so without Inexorable Subjugation, and so far there hasnt been a single crash. Right now, I also had a 50 minutes pure Inexorable Subjugation run, where the game would conjure and destroy a ghost every 4 seconds out of a corpse. Went also crashless. And the loot is pretty good. It was in the orc region, where a lot of different models are present. You could visually see that the PC had a lot to do, especially when switching to a new region, like thrusting into the goblin rider domain, but it didnt crash. The only 2 things I changed in the meantime was installing the dimitrius trimmed textures, and putting the soundlevel for soundeffects and units speech to 0. I dont assume the sound level change made the difference, so it must have been the trimmed textures. While saving every 30 seconds with a script takes out all the frustration from crashes, @dimitrius154 trimmed textures keep the game from crashing in the first place. My heartfelt thanks to you. You make the game so much more enjoyable. I will append the trimmed textures as a solution in the OP.

You have to realise that the player is not the only thing that can kill mobs. Mobs can kill mobs. Enviromenal Damage can kill mobs. A lot of other stuff can kill mobs for which the player isnt directly responsible for. For those things isforHero seems to apply the standard value of 700. The most prominent example of this you can see when you load in 10 Kraken bosses. Due to their CA nature they friendly fire a lot. And kill other kraken bosses in the process. My estimate is that around 30% of that loot is not for the player, even if isforHero is 1000. Ok, back again to the point. I read through all the posts so far. Like I stated so far the problems are that the modding scene seems to broaden themsef further and further out. Unity seems to be missing and a unified gaming experience. Let me first address the issue of Community Versions in most games. The main problem of community versions in most games is that it tries to fix things, but doesnt get a full development cycle to balance out the fixes again. A broken game can be more fun than a fixed one. Community versions dont have the manpower to make the full spin, as a single change can require a thousand hours of test time to make it fun again. For exactly this reasons many prefer the "vanilla" style, over a community version. It just feels better. The second problem that Community Versions have is that they usually try to advertise as "just like the vanilla version, but better". In ALL cases they are wrong. For the simple reason stated above CE versions can never really reach the same state as the vanilla game, with double digit developers and hundreds of testers. Let me introduce another problem here. Many CE fixes require changing the code, which first of all excludes anybody who cant revers those changes. The best solution to this is to maintain 2 versions of code, and to let the players install code changes modularly. For one reason or another this is unfeasable. Even in the case of feasability maintaining 2 code versions puts a lot of stress onto CE coders, who do it for fun, and not for stress. As you can see, splitting code changes into different versions is not really feasible, not even with the most dedicated people around. This is why I usually propose a unified code changing experience. This is why I would ask to change the advertisement of CP from "like vanilla, just better" to "As close as possible to vanilla, with inevitable code changes". You will get a lot of better feedback if you stay closer to the truth. Going from the above problem the next step is what a Community Version should look like. This varies from community to community but in Sacred 2 case I think you created the problem of not differentiating between code changes, and additional/fixed content. A change in the dll is an unavoidable code change, but adding 300 fixed/reinstated items is NOT. There is clearly a distinction missing between code changes and things which are optional. A good community version is split into 2 parts: Changed code. Due to above reasons you dont want to maintain 2 different code versions. The changes in here dont have to be objective, they just have to be unavoidable and only fixable in the code, and should stay as close as possible to the vanilla game. Every CE version comes with its own subjective changes. As stated above they CANT be tested on their fun factor, and should therefore be provided as an additional option during the CE installation. You can call the code changes the BONE Installation and the full installation the FULL CE Installation. Why bone ? Because everything which you can strip off the bone can get put into the additional part. Moving on to the other point. Good mods being lost in time. Like I pointed out on other occasions the main reason this is the case is because Sacred 2 mods miss modularity. Once you have 2 mods you basically have to manually merge them. Full stop. Furthermore mods are mostly for certain builds like [V] or [CP1.6] or [Addendum]. This means that the same efforts have to be done again and again. Good work gets lost in time, because nobody transfers the content over. Another problem to introduce here is the time to actually switch between mods. I dont think this is a small issue. If you are playing with mods, the usual reasons why you dont try out other mods are "Uff, I have to set up everything again." The less work you require people to switch between modding content the more mods will get tryed out, and the more fun people have with the game. Think about Elders Scroll, and how the modding scene would look like if the mods wouldnt be modular, but you would have to recompile your game for every single mod you add. Horrible thought. But thats the case with Sacred 2. These 2 features eliminate most of the problems. Eliminate version differences for mods. In S2s case a proper solution would be to publish a mod as a set of intructions, which automatically get applied ontop of your current build. Content would be easily addable this way. Content which may require things which cannot be changed modularly can be restricted to bigger mods, like model changes or visual additions. But dont put a pin in that as Dragon Brother might have found a way to simply extract graphical content into the pak folder. Either way eliminating version exclusivity and increasing modularity helps the community a great deal to produce better and enjoyable content more quickly. Make a modlauncher. At one point you will realise that making mods easily installable is not your only solution to have had. Now you are facing the issue that you would like to install 15 mods ontop of each, and dont want to do do the process manually everytime. Thats what you need a modlauncher for. It installs mods as easily as you first installed a single mod. The bigger and more diverse the modding content grows the more you need a modlauncher to handle all that content. As an example and if the modsystem laucnhes Flix could publish his removal of non-vanilla items as a standalone mod that can be applied to any version under any circumstances ( assuming you can easily change the droprate to 0 ). It wouldnt be depending on anything, and wouldnt break anything. The content would still be there, just deactivated. Anybody could grab it try out the changes in one minute. Then he could rebuild his old build quickly if he doesnt like it. I suggest these points as long term community goals. Create a BONE installation of the CE version of Sacred 2. Put the MEAT Installation as an optional ontop. Call it the full installation Make modmerge system for single mods ( my job ) Make a modlauncher ( propably also my job ) People would need to slowly switch over to to publish their mod in a Modmerge System Compatible [MSC] fashion, and maybe some people need to run some advertisement on how great the system is. Anyway, I can only do the things I can, and have to leave the rest up to other people. I want to point out that everybody who reads this is propably mostly capable enough to make their own build fairly well. We are mostly not setting these goals for ourself, but for the people who wouldnt stay otherwise. And we dont know what they would be able to bring into the community. We would be doing this to bet on a better future, with no assurance whether it will pay off or not. So if you think the way is fun enough to go along with it, then join the effort. Also on an unrelated note, somebody asked somewhere if it wouldnt be nice if we would list what kind of loot gets dropped by different mobs. As far as I know animals classified as "Wildtier" only drop potions. This mostly concerns lions, panthers, wolfs, etc ... Ghosts seem to only yield rings, amulets and reliqs. They also drop the commonly "converte to elemental dmg%" smithing thing. I havent looked through it yet but they have quite the good drops for those 3 categories. Dunno if we should put that somewhere. Would be interesting to tell players that drop tables are wildly different.

Yes, its in the changelog. Well, when 20 mobs are coming at you than .. 1. you cant see the stylized circles around their feet 2. gold text is only useful when you can check 20 mobs in one second, can accurately point your mouse towards the right enemy, and the nameplate accurately updates to what you are hovering over at the moment. 3. its only useful when the models are different. I can name 2 elites I know by visuals, the ice oger, and the alphawolf. The former because of his completely different armour set, and the latter because he is white, while other wolfs are black. Most other elites are indistuingishable visually from their normal counterparts. I understand why it was removed on the normal difficulties, because it pleases the eye and the the game wasnt difficult enough to make a difference. Good point there. But on EE Challenge mode with Super Spawn I need to tell at a glance how many elites are coming at me, and their position at any time. The golden shimmer was exactly there for this reason. It most likely got implemented for exactly that reason by Ascaron Entertainment. I dont have the trimmed elite textures though. Maybe that makes a difference. Anyway, I dont think the textures will be enough, and I really need to tell by a glance how many elites are in a pack. I will look for a way to change the models. Ideally, I would like to add a a subtle aura around the model to make them distinguishable at all times like this or this. Just ... less intense. It just really helps the tactical decision making.

Im looking for the file(s) responsible of removing the yellow shimmer on elites, so I can reinstate them. Am I right in the assumption that it is surface.txt ?

That can be solved differently, by releasing RMB or issue another order with LMB or issuing another order with RMB or infinite other solutions. Its definitely solvable, no reason to interrupt the LRMB experience. Unless dimitry writes that its not solveable.

@Androdion I getchu about running out of hotkey slots. Thats what I also get. But lately I removed FF from my hotkey bar as it has no use any longer. >Like I said above, casting FF+PD in a combo is faster and requires less clicks and micro management >< You are wrong again. When I start my mob run I start pressing LRMB on the first mob. I have 1. RM 2.Inexorible Subjugation/Mortifying Pillar 3.CE 4. Maelstrom 5. Paralysing dread on the hotkeys. I usually start with a 1. then my left hand presses 5., then 1. again. Press 2. for stronger mobs/hard champions Press 4. for big chunk of mobs Press 3. for hard single targets or when mopping up less than 3 enemies Press 1 for everything else. Press 5. if you only want to use normal attacks and avoid autoswitching CA Your mouse controls the direction your are moving into. If you select a mob it gets attacked until its dead. If I would still have FF one 4., I would press 5, then 4., then 1 again and seamlessly continue farming. consequently executing all buffs I need with no loss of time. If combos wouldnt stop with holding down LRMB I would use them, but I am not going to sacrifice a tightly linked experience just so I can use combos. This is why I am saying combos were not to be meant interruptable by LMB input. Yes, it saves 1 hotkey, but it interrupts your LRMB experience. The perfect farm run only contains of 2 clicks, once I press the LMB, and once I press the RMB. The rest is seamlessly switching between 5 numbers with my left hand, adapting to every situation. Saves the mouse. But your method looks cool too. Yes, CA requiring an empty target cant be combined together which need an selected target (enemy). Thats basic.

First, you are wrong. Secondly, I cant test the part you might be right about. Lets get over the part where you are wrong about. Executing a combo with a targeting spell in the second slot works fine. At least with the Inquisitor I tested 2 minutes ago. Here comes the part I cant test. I cant test whether or not a targeting a second mob if the first one got killed works. Mainly because I am not sure if the game doest lock onto the target right before the first animation finishes. BUT there are so called autoswitch CA. Autoswitch CA target the next possible mob if the targeted mob is 1. non-existent or 2. out of range. Ruthless Mutiliation would be an example for an autoswitch CA. It executes as long as you have a target and hold down RMB. (Just like good code) No, the problem is clearly the >animation blending routine< which interferes with the combo as long as you hold RLMB. The main problems with combos is this general true statement: "Hey X combos really well into Y" "Oh really ? Do you know what combos better into X ? X." Ruthless Mutiliation combos best into Ruthless Mutiliation. The only real exception for this are 2 high cd CA in the same aspect. But usually you try to keep your CA cd low. Combos 1. are meant to have a single cd. Not taking the currently highest cd of an integrated CA as the cd. 2. are not meant to be interruptable by a simple LMB statement. Arrow keys, yes. but no LMB ones. Also @dimitrius154congrats on your profile pick.

Like I said, we are waiting on concrete numbers with dimitry. My experience mostly centers around the Inquisitor and Ruthless Mutilition. And the experiment only contains raising the AS%. You are bringing up a good point, it could be that the CA level decreases (potential) animation time. But that would just further put emphasis on how bad AS is. Nobody says that there are not any hidden formular, but we are talk about an identical build where we only switch around AS% numbers. You are completely misinformed about ranged weapons and multihit CA. First, the animation time of any ranged weapon with a (sequencial) multihit CA finishes when the first projectile is generated. That is in the moment the first projectile gets created the game says "Done, whats next ?" Ofcourse you still have to finish the animation, but the additional projectiles created afterwards have nothing to do with the animation anymore. Dude, we are on the same side. I like the game as much as you do. And one of the reasons I think there is a SpeedMax in the game is to not break it. Im not bashing the game, im just discovering it. One of the consequences of this discovery is that I swtiched out my Mage Staff Lore with Tactical Lore. realising that 1. I dont need the attack value. With soul reaver I get around 16k attack value at level 50. 2. Speed doesnt do anything for RM or CE, so I can skip it. 3. I dont need the unlockable mods of magic staffs, the only one that I have seen unlockable is blockchance:mekee. Now believe me when I say that when I go into melee range im in trouble 4. I only miss out on the far away-not-yet-available-unknown mastery mods, which are propably not worth it anyway. 5. Double hit on mastery. Yes thats what I miss out on. uhm compare 25% double hit to 180% Damage and 9% crit chance. Uhm ... guess what I take ?

Come here, have a hug and sit down. Take your favourite beverage and some calming tea. Yes, it makes the animation faster. Thats what we have been talking about all the time. There is attack speed and animation speed. They are both like a cooldown, a time when you cant trigger another attack or animation while the cooldown is still running. They are both distinctive, and they dont necessarily have to be the same. If your attack speed cooldown is bigger than your animation speed than what you will experience is that your character will make the attack, and then wait around, until his invisible attack speed cooldown has run out. If your attack speed cooldown is lower than your animation time, than your character wants to make another attack, but the animation is still running, and so he has to wait until the animation finishes, before he can start another one. Normal attack animations are cancelable, which means that if your attack speed cooldown has already run out, but your animation is still running, the game cancels the animation before it finishes and starts another one. This means that you can attack more frequently because you dont have to wait around until your animation finishes. +50% Attack Speed gets almost purely translated for normal attacks, because normal attack animations are cancelable. So if you have +50% AS, you more or less get around + 50% attacks. +50% AS means that in the time you would normally do 2 strikes, you can do 3. +50% AS only means around 4% animation speed increase ( exact numbers still waiting on dimitry ). That means for characters that majorly depend on using CA, AS does increase the speed animation only marginally. If you have the choice between 50% damage, or +50% AS and you are only using PS you have to realise that you are having the decision between +50% damage and +4% speed. An enormous difference. This is why I am saying AS is bad in general. If you have the choice, choose something better. The other thing is that speed caps out waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too fast. On the lower end you have the invisible attack speed cap. You think about it like that every character cant attack faster than using up 0.25 seconds. So no matter how fast you are you won´t be able to go above 4 attacks per second. On the higher end you have in vanilla 150% MaxSpeed cap. Now think about the following possibilities. FF F at level 1 gives you +50% AS. Now it also raises the cap to 170, ok. FF F level 33 gives you +70%. That means that ALL your AS% equipment, set boni and lore AS increases are worth zilch. Now if you dont need the attack value and bother with the -AS% of higher level items ( because -AS% only affects aniamtions minimally ), cant use the mastery bonus because double attacks only apply to LMB or RMB when the skill also has double attack, you could use that skill slot for something else. Something more useful. Imagine another scenario. Weapon Lore mastery of level 110 gives you +50% AS with that weapon. That means that ALL other equipment, set boni and spells you might cast are all worth zilch. Ofcourse you could remove the cap, and have a modded game Having too much AS% destabilises your game. I mean more than just the normal amount of instability. Running animations faster means that the game needs to load the faster, and play them faster, and then pack them faster away. A recipe for disaster. My seraphim with 264% of AS attacks faster than the camera can follow the model. Crashes the game in 5 minutes. So you can see that the way AS is applied in Sacred 2 isnt really in the best way. It gets capped and cut at every corner, makes your hard earned AS worth nothing, only partially applies to animations and when you remove the cap the game gets more unstable. I hope this helped you to understand the topic. On another note and since so many new builds are on the horizon, dimitry can you softocde the fonts on hit, like -hide experience gain -hide damage counter -hide enemy damage counter -hide heal - everything else there is and extrapolate it ? Also one of the reasons why I dont use combos, is because if I run with LRMB through the game, and use a combo, the combo only gets to the first CA, and then stops because it has to run an LMB. This really makes combos unuseable. If somebody can fix it, than it is you ;).

You are comparing apples with oranges. Melee and Ranged weapons are fundamentally different, so are their animations. Im not comparing apples with oranges. I compare an Inquisitor using RM with 100% and 130% AS. Difference: 2 frames. The other example is also apples with oranges. Comparing 2 different animations isnt really what this is about. But dimitry said it will only increase it slightly. These are also my findings. So no, they won´t fundamentally increase anything, as even 100% AS would only increase things slightly. Pelting Strike is one of the longest animations in the game, and so it will profit the most of all animations from AS, but that doesnt help all the other CAs. The wiki says that +AS% weapon lore speed caps out at +80%. So again, not really anything that improves upon anything, and if, you have to invest heavily into it, and gain a marginal return. Dimitry said that the animation blending time is 0.25 seconds, which means you cap out your normal attack speed at 4 times per second. But all this gets past the point, the real questions are: For magic staff lore: Do you need the Attack Value ? If not, you can easily replace it with COE and COCE and the inquisitor can use Soul Reaver anyway. If you use CAs regularly you dont need the AS speed, and you dont care about the -AS% of using higher level staffs either. You will only miss out on mods which require the mage staff skill. There arent really that many AS% items anyway, and they shouldnt be the reason why you use the item. Usually AS comes in a combo with something else. Does mage staff skill mastery double attack stack with RM double attack chance ? And if, does it have diminishing returns ? Is it 15% + 25% ? or is it 15% + (0.85 * 0.25) = 36.35% ? Does mage staff mastery stack with any other CA ? Skill mastery should unlock some additional mods on items ? I think ? Love the discovery process, but I think the tooltips could use information of how much AS% they draw for CA animation speed. Or maybe not. Bottom line is that AS should never be a deciding factor for your decisions. Nice to have, but caps out quickly. I appreciate the input.

@Flix There is still something we can take away from this. AS sucks ass. I dont mean that as in equipment +AS% or weapon +AS%. Just in general. AS% would suck even more if normal attacks would not be cancelable. It sucks so hard that FF isnt a skill anymore that does anything, besides what the mods might add ( dodge%, AV and MS ). This kinda makes me think whether or not we shouldnt use AS% a bit differently, as the current "+100AS% ? Great. you saved 6 frames." is not really compelling. Just noted as a balance point issue. Edit: Haha. Mage weapon lore only increases hit chances (AV), and AS. So even a mage Inquisition aspect inquisitor wouldnt need weapon mage staff lore. If higher level mage staffs can be used with CA with little consequences. In this FF could even counter-act the lost speed. I want my skill slot back ... ( I know an editor exists ).

I wasnt questioning that. Dunno why you mention it. I appreciate the information, but .. . The perceived difference of what ? 1. Normal attacks are cancelable. There is no perceived difference here. You can see that with the naked eye. 2. AS of FF decreases animation. Not by 30% but rather by a few frames. So little that I needed to look VERY closely and run some video recording tests. I think thats also what you were trying to say. AS improves CA animation only marginally. This comment kinda implies that I should have had that knowledge available prior to writing. Which I didnt. I gladly mention this again but you are the only one around with inside coding experience of Sacred 2. But you are running around as if everybody had the same skill set, experience and knowledge. Kinda comes off that way. I appreciate the information, but .. . The summary of my post is just this: Normal attacks are cancelable, which means animation restrictions apply less to normal attacks and that you will gain a close to all of your AS as pure speed gain. CA animations are not cancelable, and only marginally get boosted by AS. CA animations are a real AS throttles. As a consequence you, the player, should check whether or not you might be doing better with normal attacks, and use CA only sparsely. Most guides sing the song of keeping your CA as low as possible, to use them as often as possible, but they dont mention that you should additionally check the time you need for your animations. Depending on character, CA and other factors your current setup might be improved upon, some item modifiers% might be useless to you. Getting AS% mods is useless if you are already consequently spam Pelting Strikes, as you only get a fraction of the improved AS%. You might better put your gear into increasing damage directly. All of this is good and valuable information if you enjoy playing the game. Cheers Somebody should write that in the wiki or stuff. If we could get an approximite % on how much AS cuts down on animation and get the absolute unskippable frame data that would make for an interesting entry. Wouldnt you think so ? <3 Edit: I have to take back what I said. While normal attacks indeed have much higher DPS with moderate +AS%, its execution is depending on the human to switch targets seamlessly. That means a human has to evaluate current target, next target and the potential kill moment at any given moment. While CA animations throttle you DPS quite hard, they have an autoswitch to the next available target, and therefore seamlessly link your attacks together, and most importantly they do this with minimal input from the player. So with micromanagement you can indeed increase your DPS, but it takes a lot of effort for an uncertain gain, depending on human execution. Targets which dont require switching are a different topic though.

Uhm what ? An inquisitor with 102% AS which gets a FF lvl1 buff to 133% AS Only gets around 2 frames of less animation time when using CA. An inquisitor which undergoes the same +31% AS speed buff gets around a ~30% increased real AS, as normal attacks are cancelable. 2 Frames vs ... 1.3/1 of the base frame value of normal attacks. Thats what I call a significant difference in re-al AS gain. I ... know. Otherwise your LFM would always overtake your RMB and you would never use RMB when holding LRMB down and run through Ancaria. Its like somebody put a temporary solution into it and said "We ll make a proper solution later"

Oh. Sorry for the wild goose chase than. I guess that was premature, I didnt consider ... a lot of factors. I have run more tests since, and if dimitry says the difference are marginal, I believe him. However, more questions pop up from this. The main difference between CA and normal attacks I have found is that normal attacks are cancel-able, and CA are not. Now that has many implications. For instance that animation time for normal attacks are a non issue, since they are cancelable. If the inquisitor has 102% AS, and uses FF to go to 133% the difference in dps is enormous. Around 30% Exactly like the numbers suggest. On the other hand dimitry says that CA animations only profit marginally from AS, that means that ( with all the modded removed SpeedMax = 4000 ) normal attacks are going to be your main dps, simply because your CA animations throttle your DPS. And yes, as dimitry pointed out, Flix, in vanilla people would reach 150% AS with a level 3 char and a level 1 FF. Thats how fast people reach the AS cap ( in vanilla ). Now with all the modded content around and 4000 maxspeed this is ofcourse different. But no matter if it is vanilla or modded content, normal attacks overtake CA pretty immediatelly in dps. This puts a whole new emphasis on weapon CA. You should have your weapon CA on a medium level, because being stuck in a CA animation costs you a lot of DPS. No ? The less CA you use, and the more runes you read in the higher the damage for each use, and the less time you spend locked in a CA animation. Honestly I think it to be a little bit counterintuitive to have weapon CA to not execute in the same timeframe as a normal attack. I always though of weapon CA as a "instead of a normal attack I use a better one". But this rather screams for weapon CA to only use them if you have a special occasion which needs them ? I assume somebody could make weapon CA cancel-able, and thuse unlock their full potential. Although that would get op pretty fast. The consistency is messed up though .. Sacred 2 is limitless in its discovery process. Or somebody could lock normal attacks to not be cancelable, but that has many deep implications. Prolly game-breaking ones.