essjayehm

Hi, Senseo! Welcome! I've put some tips below in RED. I'm not an Elf expert, but your questions are quite general.

I'm not a Shadow Warrior specialist, but I believe that your skills look great! I would suggest taking 1)Tactics Lore, 2)Concentration, 3)Armour Lore, 4)Hafted (or Swords) as your first 4. This gives you the base skills most melee characters require. Put as many points into Tactics as you can, and keep it as high as your character level throughout your campaigns. This will give you mod points in both Death Warrior and Malevolent Champion aspects, a definite advantage for Shadow Warrior players. Typically, you modify your buffs first, but I am not exactly sure with Shadow Warrior's. Just a point about your battling: Reflective, Grim and Nether are buffs. These you can only cast once (typically right as soon as you load up your character) so you don't need to cast them every battle. Also, until you get your concentration up to level 75, you will only be able to use 2 buffs most of the time (you actually have to pick concentration before you get 2 buffs...). I believe without Astral Lord Focus or Lore, you will not be using Nether Allegiance for very long, so RE and GR will be your 2 buffs, and consider not taking concentration to mastery at all.(ie leave at 1 point, or put a few in to help with your Combat Art regeneration times) The only reason for choosing between Swords or Hafted is what you have access to. If you have friends who can trade you weapons, etc, then choose the one that has the most desireable modifiers for you. If you don't have any access, you take your chances, and will often doubt your choice of picking one or the other (because for sure you will pick up something AWESOME that you don't have the lore for!) If I am 1H and shield, I try to squeeze in both swords and hafted just for that factor alone. (although it is a "wasted" pick taking a second weapon lore 8\)

Sorry, playing PS3 but offline only. Reading about the PSN nonsense has really put me off from even considering going online with my PS3. OH, and the $500 satellite system I would need to even hook up to internet from my home. 8( Welcome to the boards! if you have questions, everyone here will try to help where they can!

Gah! Feb 24th... sorry, Solomon I wasn't ignoring you! hrm... iirc, I was pumping Bargaining, Armour Lore and Devout Focus to 75, so good bet those are at 70. Tactics had about 20 points, and was the next to go to mastery. All the rest were at 5 points (maybe Constitution at 10 - it was going to be 5th mastery.) My personal style of "hardcore" meant that I couldn't use items from my chest. So all equip was found / bought by himself. I think my +all skills was very low, probably about +10-15 when he died. That was user error, not the build (forgot to use Combat Alert and got whammy'ed by a couple of champion/elite Orcs) This build does not have a set of skills you can "lean" on +all skills to do most of the work. Lots of thought and testing and re-forging along the way was the main reason for playing the build.

Soooooo... I really cannot say for sure, but I believe it does. My current Temple Guardian I didn't take Constitution. Charged Grid seems to be enough to keep me alive in Niob, for the most part (I died vs. Grunwald Dragon). Usually by the time I've cast Combat Alert, Firey Ember and Charged Grid, the baddies have taken over half of my health. Since the Alert is high enough that I rarely get hit after casting, Grid usually pops me back up to full health in about 10 or so seconds. (My total HP is 10k, so CG is healing about 500 HP per second?) HOWEVER, against champions and elites, it really isn't enough by itself, and I wish I had in-combat health regen PLUS Charged Grid. Food for thought. Most notable to me was that I took the damage mod, not the healing choice for it!! I had taken the defensive mods on Icy and Firey, so I was making the Grid my damage option.

My thoughts on your situation: (it depends whether you plan to Tank with this character online) 1: If tanking, go with shield. Even if playing Co-Op with a friend, go shield. You want to be able to take bosses hits better. Although if you are simply going to play one-player I would say dual wield is a good thought. It could be fun to trade off between weapon sets during combat. (based on my play-style, mind you. . .) 2: Again, with my play style, I don't completely understand why someone would want to stop putting skill points in simply because they have gotten the mastery. Then again, I haven't been playing this game as long as the other two individuals who posted, well I don't think I've been playing for as long as them. 3: And if you go with Dual Wield go with Speed Lore, it seems to be a wonderful Skill choice. Although, if you go with Shield you'll probably want Combat Reflexes. Unless you really want the +DMG from Speed Lore. Your choice, my fellow gamer. Your choice. No matter what, HAVE FUN! I will agree completely with Steele on 1. If you're online, probably better for you as a newer player to have the extra defense of the shield. Yes, you have a fairly defensive build here, but YOU WILL NEED IT, probably. (there's always a catch!). If you have some people you can trade, you'll probably be able to keep your armour up to date enough that the extra D from shield might not be required. If you take Dual Weild as #9, definitely take Combat Reflexes as your 10th skill As for #2. There are diminishing returns within the skills system that make it undesireable to take some skills past 75 hard points, and the only reason there is to obtain the mastery bonuses. IMO, there are skills that should be picked, but never a second (nevermind 74 more) points put into them. Always depends on the player/build/team, etc. #3 I will say if you take shield lore as #9, Combat Relexes (mentioned by Loco and Furian) would be a 5th defensive skill. 5 is a lot. With shield lore, I'd suggest a General Skill. Riding hasn't been mentioned before, think about it when you start using your Unique Mount. If you like playing mounted, that is definitely a possibility. I think Enhanced Perception is a secondary Shadow Warrior ability, so you wouldn't be able to get it as your 10th skill. Alchemy is horrible to use on console, but a very powerful skill nonetheless. If you take Dual Weild as #9, definitely take the Reflexes as your 10th skill. (unintentional repeat, intentionally left in...) Steele hinted that Speed Lore gives a damage bonus, but I don't believe that's right. It adds run speed, and base attack and defense values. Combat Discipline give the damage bonus, I think that's what he meant...

It's all about Goldenglade Touch, my man. With a single mod point put into it to increase HP regeneration (the bronze "Flow" mod, specifically), taking on the Griffon is very much doable at low level. I probably could have taken him at an even earlier level; that's just how many levels I gained on my way to fight him. Of course, it takes a long time to drop him as my chance to hit him is so low, but it's a fun exercise in pushing the limits of a character. For reference, I was able to take on the Colossus at level 9 with my Shadow Warrior, also HC... so it's really not that bad. The death of my Dryad was preventable, as potion effects still go through even when I'm stunned. I was just being stubborn and trying to get some form of response from the game before I realized that I was stunned. Whoops... Ah, about the same HP regen as Grand Invigoration = 200 runes read? Gotcha. Feels good to be (nearly) invincible! For Silver, anywho. Hardcore Shadow Warrior at level 9 can be perma-Veiled, no? As long as you can hit him, I guess that's no problem! Might take a while I haven't fought this guy fairly too many times, to be honest. My seraphim died fighting him, but that was 100% user error. My current Temple Guardian has fought him fairly in Platinum, around level 60-ish. Not too big a deal, but I was the one doing the stunning! He managed to get the shield down, but that was the only thing he did, iirc.

The main reason that I have for using daggers over sword is if you have a Combat Art with a high regen. time that you are using as your primary damage source. Dual-ing daggers then becomes sensible (with Regen per hit) because the daggers actually attack faster than the swords. That is to say, you can swing a dagger more times in 10 seconds than you can a sword, the same as you can swing a one-handed sword more times in 10s than a 2h sword. I don't have a lot of experience with Shadow Warrior, so I am not sure if there is an application for you or not. My example is with a Temple Guardian and Deathly Spears. It has quite a high regeneration time compared to most other Combat Art's, so to get the real power out of this Combat Art, I had to find a way to recharge it quickly. I didn't have a weapon lore, so I wasn't tied to any type of weapon, but I didn't have any attack speed either. Along came an Ilea's dirk, so I gave it a whirl. I thought it was the free attack speed that was helping so much, but Chattius' posts about his spears Temple Guardian confirmed my observations - daggers attack "animation" is faster than any other weapon. (actually, the blowgun is very close, if I'm not mistaken).

Yeah, I thought of that on my drive home that night. D'oh! I believe you're right about the reflect being checked first. I spent some time in the Orc cave with my Temple Guardian and for a few runs didn't try to kill the Orcs, just let them kill themselves with my Combat Alert reflecting their attacks (and the Shield reflecting some of their Combat Art attacks...). What I noticed is that they only had about 35% chance to hit me, but just about every swing they took damaged themselves (the odd one connecting on me...). Other than that, I haven't gotten any encouraging results from my testing with COCE. Just wads of "random" numbers, which is actually what I expected - since a certian sample size is needed, I figure another 50k enemies killed and logged... oh that's probably not gonna happen, LOL. It'll be more likely that I try to level up a shopper to get as high a COCE value as I can. Without Combat Alert, I've got less than 10% CtH most enemies in Niob with the level 98 Temple Guardian, so I had figured with about 35% COCE I would see good improvement in my CtH, which hasn't happened. Just for reference, can anyone tell me the hightest COCE they've seen on a non-unique ring? I imagine there are "double-COCE" rings out there and those would be the ones I'd have to hunt down. I've been super-lucky and have all 4 Lumen's pieces for the COCE set bonus for my Temple Guardian, but at my current level, I couln't dedicate any more than 2 slots for more COCE, so I've only gotten up to the aforementioned 35% range. I'll keep working on this for now.... but.... OK, whoa... I just previewed my post and there are ads in it.... I swear I didn't do that... they're linked to "random" words... weird OK were ads in it... they disappeared after I posted...

Srry, cant help you with that list. Starting Silver is the way to go... Bronze has no challenge whatsoever. Tyr Lysia... well... level 10-15 and move on I'd say. Depends a bit on character tho. Grunwald is always a friendly place to go after Tyr Lysia. Greetz Barristan's comment is sound. The only thing I can say about Grunwald is that the number of enemies is pretty high. Not unusual to get groups of 20-30 if you're not careful. Great if you have the defense to fight big battles... Usually if playing a character without the console cheats, I hang around the elven region until level 12-ish. Beating the Gar'Colossus at the end of the Human area by level 18. My next measuring point is not until the Scorpion boss at the end of the Desert, most of my guys have been level 25 for that one. Finishing Silver around level 35 (if the build is working properly). End of gold around level 60-ish. Platinum is quite character and build-dependent. My best without cheating is 78. Current character is at 95 and just getting ready to fight the Guardians.

I've had to supress the overwhelming urge to throw controllers while being stunned. Although I've learned to keep the camera at a zoom level that allows me to tell if I'm stunned or weakened or frozen. So I decided to play WITH the stunning! (Temple Guardian's have a lot built-in). (If you can't beat them, ....) Just how big are your cohones, anyway? Going after Griffon @ level 7, HARDCORE? IMO, You're crazy man, that's for sure! You must've felt really good about your toon doing that.

Yeah, that's what it seemed like to me. I think this is one of the cases where the translators desire to be clever (eg, Ancestral Fireball rather than Fireball, Incendiary Shower rather than Meteor, T-energy Shroud rather than T-battle shield) gets in the way of people understanding Holy Hannah!'s going on & with Sacred 2 being so complex, this is a bad thing. Yes... and now you see why I was so unsure about my equations. Basing an equation on english wording that has been translated from another language is a crapshoot at best! So, do we all agree that COCE = sure hits? By that I mean that with 100% COCE, YOU WILL NEVER MISS. That seems wrong, somehow. Or not. It would take a lot of slots to get COCE to 100%! But then you could have an attack value of 1 and still finish the game (which is the part that seems wrong). Another thing I forgot about when I started this topic is BLOCK CHANCE. Anybody know if this affects our Chance to Hit? I've been thinking about how these all relate and how the programming is set up to handle them. I think this is how the hit chance calculations go: BASE=====>EVASION======>BLOCKING CtH Ugh... now I know why I haven't figured out where the BASE CtH comes in... I've usually been running the numbers on all the smaller enemies (rats, scarabs, etc) and maybe those little buggers have evasion/blocking! Also of note is that the last opponent info in the overview screen uses your current stats and not the stats that were "active" when you I was battling the enemies. This is noticeable with the Temple Guardian by looking at the info before / after casting combat alert. So I had come up with a plan to check the evasion % of enemies by using the last opponent info and equipping/unequipping OCE or COCE modifiers and running the numbers from my equations. If block chance does affect the CtH, I will need and and (boy do you have a lot of drinking smileys) When I sober up I will giv'er another go.

That's exactly the result I got with life leeched per hit... no way no how could I get one of my shots to "hit" the egg (looking for the life leech lines). I still haven't found LL% shurikens on PS3 (and no CC10 set). Still looking! Us consolers will have to settle for 4 bosses per run... sorry, Madmartigan chattius Posted Feb 26 2010, 05:45 AM I think enemy_whit_verlangsamen is reduce attack speed. Which would only affect normal (left click) attacks? So, is that the spell that puts the dark cloud around our heads and really slows the attack speed? (the champion Harpys near elf-human border mountains and the champion Demons are the most memorable of those for me) I started doing a full exploration of Dryad Island over the weekend but don't remember getting hit by one of those spells, maybe I better mutate a tree spirit and see if they cast it. I am when I thought of dragging a champion plant over to those t-energy pools and trying to mutate it for this experiment! But what else has a stomp AND that attack speed slow? So far I am thinking that 1433 might be an OLM... but I don't remember any mutated ones 1890 still no clue.

Could these enemies be from Ice and Blood? What else stomps other than minotaurs and the leaping plants? So many things self-heal, that doesn't say much. What is whit_verlangsamen? Are there any "bosses" within the class quests? I've really only done the Inquisitor and Temple Guardian and seraphim quests. Plant bosses in the dryad quest was my immediate thought. Maybe sidequest bosses? Been thinking about it all week!

EDITED for correctness... So we have been considering the modifers "Opponents Chance to Evade" (OCE) and "Chance that Opponents Cannot Evade" (COCE). They both (sometimes) have an effect on your chance to hit (CtH), because we know that they both affect enemies' evasion chance. For reference, the equation for evasion has been given as: (apologies for not formatting it better, but time was of the essence) New CtH = Old CtH/(1+evasion/100) A little brainstorming has led me to a couple of assumptions: OCE directly affect the enemies' evasion stat. COCE gives a chance that the evasion calculation is omitted entirely. If these assumptions are correct, then that gives plausible explaination for the observation that OCE is the better modifier, as it seems to increase the CtH against normal monsters much "better" than COCE. IF THE ENEMY HAS NO EVASION: *COCE will not do anything to your CtH. The reason is thus: If the evasion is 0, then omitting it doesn't change anything!*OCE works, as it makes the enemies' evasion negative. This still increases your CtH, since the evasion calculation is still included in the final CtH calculation. IF THE ENEMY HAS EVASION: Well, we'll need some data to work from. I managed to incorporate OCE and COCE into the evasion calculation, BUT I AM NOT SURE THESE ARE CORRECT. Just some thinking about the topic and the wording of the modifiers. EVASION CALCULATION WHEN OCE IS ADDED: New CtH = Old CtH / (1 + [evasion - OCE]/100) Since OCE directly reduces the evasion, I think this is the proper equation. We can simplify this a little, and make it an expression of a ratio of the old CtH to new Cth. This is what I came up with: Old CtH/New CtH = 1 + (evasion - OCE)/100 EVASION CALCULATION WHEN COCE IS ADDED: This one I am totally unsure about. My thinking was that if we are getting a chance to omit evasion calc. entirely, then we multiply the evasion calc. by the chance the opponent DOES have a chance to evade. That equation I have derived as follows: New CtH = [Old Cth/(1+evasion/100)]x[(100-COCE)/100] More or less if COCE is 20%, then we take the evasion calc. and multiply by 0.80 because the enemy has a 80% chance to have their evasion included in the CtH. I have not been able to rearrange this bad-boy as a ratio of Old:New Cth's CALCULATION WHEN BOTH ARE ADDED: Well, may as well since we've come this far! Of note is that if your OCE > enemies' evasion, then COCE will DECREASE your CtH! Omitting the evasion calc when evade chance is less than 0.....(see above) New CtH = [Old Cth/(1+{evasion-OCE}/100)]x[(100-COCE)/100] Plugging in a few random numbers into these equations shows that for equal amounts of OCE and COCE, COCE increases CtH more than OCE. But we "knew" this because COCE is always found at lower % than OCE. I also noted that the higher the evasion, the larger the difference between the increases in CtH. Thus, the higher the enemies' evasion, COCE becomes even better than OCE. As for finding the points at which OCE and COCE are the same for any given evasion, I have failed in my attempts to manipulate the COCE equation to give a simple answer. Hopefully someone has the math power to pick up where I have left off here. Of course, all this info is useless if we don't know which enemies actually have evasion! And how much evasion they have! Anywho, that's a start, I thought I'd post my findings before I am off for the weekend (Fridays off to burn vacation time...). If anyone is so inclined, I would like to know what the ratios of OCE and COCE are available for each difficulty. Shopping out some rings with OCE and COCE on the same ring are what I am interested in. It would be really useful if rings of the same level were shopped on different difficulties as well. (With that ratio, I can approximate the amount of evasion where COCE is more powerful than OCE)

I quite like the -opponent's physical armour mod on axes (not entirely sure if it's applied before damage is calculated or after). Serious Open Wounds is available on swords if you have the mastery. Chance that Opponents Cannot Evade is on Pole Arms with mastery. (soooooooooo good if you get it on a LL% I think those are the ones I think I like best, although I have not taken a weap lore to mastery yet....

OK... not from my observations, but you sound quite certian on this point; no need to argue, as I have not dedicated testing for this. Could my observations be because I play console version?

GT is Temple Guardian in spanish. Damn, have to get used to the english names! Try to increase the attack speed via modifiers, not skills. The Combat Art's execution speed shouldn't change. The third hit of the battle extension of the Temple Guardian has to be slower than the others, but only affected by casting speed. That's what I mean, the two first hits of that Combat Art are always faster than the third one, so it may seem they aren't affected by the same thing. Sorry, I saw GT and I will always insert "Gran Turismo" when I see that.... Munera, I believe we are on the same page, same paragraph and same sentence. But it feels like we're speaking different languages... ohwait, we do! My tests were done without weapon lore, so all +attack speed was from modifiers. My observation was that the 3 hits were controlled ONLY by attack speed, but there is an animation that comes before the attacks (where he extends the Battle Arm) and that animation is controlled by casting speed. I have come to believe that all Combat Art's have a casting animation, it is just a very fast one for most of these Combat Art's that are weapon-based. Battle Extension has one of the slowest of these kinds of animations. I have also noticed it with Archangel's Wrath (when she flourishes the sword before the bolt(s) fire), but it has RT Lore affecting its "execution speed" so I didn't want to mention it before. I noticed the delay between the 2nd and 3rd hits as well, it seemed consistent to me, and neither attack or cast speeds changed the delay. Maybe I just didn't have enough casting speed (was about +20%) to notice the difference.

it will if you follow the rules, it's easily to accidently do. but there is now way to do it 15 times in a row, without knowing the glitch ^_^ it will in fact respawn after so long (5-10 minutes) or so, but if you follow the above said rules it will respawn instantly for so many runs. then it will disappear for 1 run then come back on the next. which is much better than waiting if you want to do a superfast boss run. thanks I hope so to Definitely my fave cave Good stuff, Cloudnine7! Thanks for that!

That is the best way to describe it. Cooldown. Only the god statues (and DD, obviously) affect the time to re-use the god powers. Stamina also does not affect the cooldown time...

Thanks for the link, that should make it obvious for anyone else still confused! GT attack? I am sorry I don't quite know what you mean there. I was using the Temple Guardian Combat Art "Battle Extension". Definitely a right-click attack. Yes, it is VERY much slower than most weapon-based Combat Art's.... so much so I avoided it a lot until my current Temple Guardian. Then I tested casting speed, and noticed a nice increase in the speed which he does the "casting" part of the Combat Art. You still need high attack speed for the "attack" part of this Combat Art to get best results.

I was thinking about this, and I would need the hit chance calculation for attack vs. defense. Links, please, if it is easiest. I know the evasion equation goes like this: Old hit chance _____ = New hit chance 1 + (evasion/100) Example - if the enemy has 50% chance to hit you (from last opp. info) then if you add 100 % evasion, the new hit chance is 25% (50/2) So I would need to know what the calculation is for hit chance WITHOUT evasion. To the best of my reasoning, I figure the hitchance calculations are done in this order: 1 - calculate CtH based on attack and defense values 2 - adjust CtH based on evasion 3 - adjust CtH based on Combat Art used (since we all agree that the Combat Art's have a built-in CtH modifier) I can disregard the final calc (#3), and base the calculations on level 1 Combat Art's. (ie none or very little CtH modfier).

You bring up an interesting point about the two anti evasions. Personally I haven't seen, or looked for, the difference and it's really cool that you mention it. I did toy around with them in tandem and in every case "Opponents chance to evade" seemed to be the most effective. There was a topic regarding this on the SIF which I did a bit of testing for. I wouldn't be surprised though if some Bosses were more affected by the other anti evade. Chance that opponents cannot evade attacks. Would be cool if that were the case and that we could list which Bosses were most affected by each anti evade. Ah, I'm surprised that disregard works well with your Source Warden spells essjayehm. Lucky you! I did try disregard with my High Elf's Cobalt Strike against Olms but it didn't have any effect sadly. I haven't tried in Ice & Blood though... I'll give that another try. Still. I'm recommending that spells not be used against bosses since Leech life from opponents does not work with spells. This is pretty much going to be a "no spells" guide. Firstly - Disregard and spells. That was a conclusion I came to when I noticed Firey Ember damage. They hit about once per second or so, and at the time of my observation, each hit was doing about 15% of the monster's health, but sometimes it did ~50% damage! I took into account some other factors (monsters' fire armour, criticals) but I cannot really rule out burning (esp. with Damage Lore with this character). So either the extra damage was coming from disregard, or from the secondary effect, and I cannot imagine the burn being the sole reason for that much increase.... so I have assumed it was disregard. Far from perfect testing, I realize, maybe I should try with Icy to see if I get the same occasional jump in damage. For the 2 types of anti-evasion - if you have Chance that Opponents Cannot Evade (COCE) 100%, then the evasion calculation is omitted entirely. NO CHANCE TO EVADE. Your hit chance will be determined by attack vs. defense values. - if you have Opponents Cannot Evade (OCE) 100%, there are 2 scenarios. One where evasion cannot be reduced below 0; and one if evasion is still calculated with a number less than 0. I read that Chattius says that evasion is still calculated with a negative number, so we can move forward from there. If evasion cannot be reduced below 0, then COCE wins most of the time, with comparable %'s. I bet everyone's noticed that OCE% > COCE% Since Schot's tests show OCE wins most of the time, then evasion MUST be calculated even if the number is negative. That opens different possibilities - depending on the opponents evade stat compared to your OCE. I'll have to run some figures to figure it all out

Lessee if I can't confuse things even more! My tests stem from the Temple Guardian and the Battle Extension combat art. ON FOOT. I noticed different results from riding the wheel. All testing was done on Mad Dog, who didn't have any weapon lore. Tactis lore was not changed at all when these tests were done, so I cannot say if it has any effect (I believe the forum consensus was that it doesn't anyway...) Anyone who has played the Temple Guardian and tried to use BE as an attack, notice that he has an animation to "activate" the extra arm, and as he is doing the attacks (looks kinda like seraphim's Pelting Stikes move). With the glitchy PS3 I noticed a "pause" between these 2 animations and wondered "whazzupwiththat?" The first animation (he looks like he rears back and then the BE arm pops out) is definitely controlled solely by casting speed. The 3-hit animation is definitely controlled solely by attack speed. My tests with the other Devout Combat Art's have not been as obvious in the results. Except Combat Alert. It is controlled by casting speed (obv?) My thought with this is the "activation" animations are so short on most "weapon-based Tactics Lore controlled" Combat Art's (is that the correct wording?) that it would be very hard to notice any change (especially when cast speed maxes at +50%)

I am pretty sure concentration potions do not affect regen time on the god power. I tried using it a couple of times lately, just for kicks, really. Since I am popping conc. potions constantly with this character, I was hoping to see if the god power regenerated faster. It would be quite noticeable, since I am using "concentration potions" - they reduce regen times by 50% while active, and I noticed no change in the rate of the god power recharge. I also believe that Alchemy is NEVER a wasted slot, even on console. It just takes some effort to ensure that you can use the trophies relatively easy. Managing the Miscellaneous page of your inventory so that the trophies are accessible (eating/scrapping runes "for your toon" being the bulk of the work). Even if you don't use too many trophies, the potion duration extension from taking Alchemy is wonderful. My $.02 Such was the test my friend and I are currently running. He uses Testa as much as possible, whereas I try to never use him (although I wondered about the conc. potions, so I tested it a couple of times...). Also tested good / evil chars using Testa. We'll see at level 100 if there is any differences. He was a good char, and I was evil being the only differences that we already eliminated in the early levels. The only diff. between good and evil Testa powers was the animations - good Testa has lightning bolts (like Cobalt Strike) and evil Testa has balls of light. We started noticing differences in damage fairly early, then we realized that we had different damage +%. Without ANY damage bonuses, the damages were the same thru level 12. Him - about 5 uses (and 15-20 praying @ statue for regen) and me none.