I need some advanced info on Shields and Block warding energy, please :)

[Dobri 55]

I have to post it here in the general section. Shields are both Seraphim and TG specialty, so none of the 2 subforums apply.

 

I have been delving into the intricacies of energy shields lately in order to realize how they actually work. I am well aware of the basics - but some advanced mechanics doesn't seem "oh so clear" to me.

 

I know how damage mitigation, absorption warding energy and such traits work, but there si something that's escaping me. I know block warding energy improves the damage mitigation provided by the shield. I know for a fact that an energy shield provides some damage mitigation because a level 1 kobold vs. level 1 Seraphim naked with a low-ca level shield inflicts a few points less damage than a level 1 naked seraphim without a shield.

 

The good question is how much damage mitigation that is. The Buff itself shows a flat value which is unclear to me. Right now I'm in SP HC, trying to analyze soldats' build with tweaked balance.txt for 25x XP and 5x drops to ensure the equipment he uses - the way I analyzed my pure caster Inquisitor build versus ca reflecting, projectile reflecting, close combat reflecting, debuffing mobs and all in-game bosses bosses, etc. - and see how soon his type of seraphim can achieve immortality. At level 125 I have 45.2% all channel damage mitigation from equipment and 20.2% damage mitigation from toughness. I also have some unique amulets for 2.5% or more all channel damage mitigation, but I'm saving them for later. So I should have about 65.4% damage mitigation at this point. That is great to say the least. The hard hitting orcs in the orc cave hit for 1000 damage only on a crit, provided they aren't stunned by flaring nova - keeping in mind that I'm yet to master shield lore which will boost the damage mitigation (through blocking) of this build greatly.

 

The thing that puzzles me is that warding energy, at ca level 1+ 33 (34 total, for now, I am yet to re-vamp the equipment) has a flat value of 206 damage mitigation. In other skills with similar descriptions, Sacred 2 uses a factor of this value, which is usually 1/10 of it. If I recall correctly, Combat discipline is such example - +1784 damage means 178.4% damage bonus.

 

However, pure logic dictates that this is inappropriate in this situation, because that would mean 20.6% damage mitigation. 206 flat damage (211 at the next CA level) seems a bit more plausible, because at this point of the game, 206 damage is about 1/10 of the general mob damage, because stronger mobs inflict well over 2-3k damage, but bosses go well above that value.

 

If anyone can shed some light on the matter, I would appreciate it

Edited August 18, 2009 by Dobri

[gogoblender 3,072]

Dobri, have you check here on Wiki?

 

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacred_2:Energy_Shields

 

Kaballah wrote a pretty extensive article on shields when he was delving into their mysteries as well. Maybe that could offer some help?

 

As well, if you feel that article needs a revamp and/or update, would be awesome if you can.

 

 

gogo

[Dobri 55]

I am well aware of that article, gogo I have read wiki inside and out However, I didn't see a place with clarification on that damage mitigation. See this, from wiki:

 

"Damage mitigation reduces the damage taken (after resistances are applied, but before the damage is applied to the shield, or player health), it's static, though it can be increased by an item mod (Block Warding Energy +x), increased Combat Art levels and the skill Warding Energy Lore."

 

-> Ok, I figured as much myself - but how? Flat value? Percentage? Some formula or factor?

 

"When damage is dealt to a character that is running a shield of some type, the damage is first reduced by armor and damage mitigation (some of which may be provided by the shield itself)."

 

-> Now that pretty unclear. "May" be provided?

 

This is why I asked

 

EDIT: Testing showed that it's most likely a flat value. Naked seraphim, level 1 WE buff, 2 damage mitigation. Without it she takes 11 damage from a level 1 wolf. With it, the damage decreases to 9. So the value should be flat.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Dobri

[gogoblender 3,072]

Sweet then if your research can uncover some more of the mysteries for the wiki.

 

 

gogo

[Dobri 55]

Well, the research showed that the value is flat I am a bit disappointed, because this is a mere pittance at higher difficulties, but I guess one can try to make it better.

[Zinsho 0]

The damage is flat, however the order from the wiki there seems wrong from what I've been hearing/seeing lately.

 

I know the following is fairly obvious for the most part however it's worth noting, just to make sure everyone is on the same page.

 

First comes %Mitigation.

By far this will offer the largest decrease relatively speaking no matter what. If your mitigation % is 10%, then it's a 10% deduction, no ratios against damage and armor etc etc.

 

Then Armor (Damage * Damage / (Damage + Resistance))

 

Next +Block Warding Energy

This as you've said is a flat value, it seems minimal however the few times I've bothered comparing what it blocks vs what I'm typically taking, it's a fair bit better than it seems on face value. (It came out to ~10% of incoming damage, which is decent free mitigation so to speak)

(And the value on the wiki for level 200 WEL seems lower than I expect, I'll double check my values tonight but I'm wondering about a few things there).

 

For the seraphim with just Warding Energy (I'm not going to touch DP since I don't know what sort of bonus it provides etc, if you have data for that it's worth incorporating. I do know the increased absorption on it really is mitigation, not +Block) you have 4 sources of increasing Block Warding Energy: WEL (Fixed increase from what I can see), WEL Unlocked modifiers on items, Default +Block from the buff, Gold mod providing more Block (on a test level 200 character with 75 WEL and 75 Revered Tech (and level 80ish WE based on full Endijian's) +BWE was at ~+500 or more damage. Probably half of this was from the gold mod, and I saw one thing that surprised me.

Revered Tech Lore modifies the value so higher levels of Tech Lore means more damage blocked. (Add to that that WEL is increased via Combat Art skills and you can get 2 for the price of 1 even if you don't have +all skills and only +CASkills.)

 

For the TG it only comes from WEL, the unlockable modifier and T-Shroud, however I suspect Tactics Lore behaves the same in modifying the amount of block available.

 

Now if my values are wrong, correct me, I haven't tested them all that much... if an enemy at level 200 deals on average 10-15k damage and you have the following:

 

45.2% Mitigation from Gear and whatnot

20.2% Mitigation from Toughness

Block Warding Energy +500 (as I said, it's possible even if just from buff gear and 1 rune, then going to standard combat gear, you still will have the base +block), including WEL.

5k Armor vs damage... assuming mono elemental and proper resistance, and I know it can be much higher than this.

 

Apply Mitigation

12,500 * (1 - .654) = 4,325

Apply armor

4,325 * 4,325 / (9,325) = 2005 (let's say armor can't block more than 50% since I've seen that claimed and that becomes) 2162.5

2162.5 - 500 = 1662.5 damage taken, which is then applied to shield etc.

In this case the 500 BWE works out to almost 25% mitigation.

 

Now drive that damage value through the roof: 100k

100,000 * (1-.654) = 34,600

34,600 * 34,600 / 39,600 = 30,231

30,231 - 500 = 29,731... much less beneficial at 2% mitigation.

 

Of course I'm fairly certain you won't very often be up against enemies dealing 100k damage before resistances and mitigation, but it does show a point where the values are pointless, the first case showing it being more valuable.

 

So by itself it isn't all that valuable. But now if we were to look at values where damage is lower still:

5k damage * (1-.654) = 1,730

armor at most halves (I'd have to test to see, but let's say that's true and it gives us an upper damage point)

1730/2 = 865 - 500 = 365

if it applies in full: 1730*1730/6730 = 444.7 - 500 = 0 damage

 

 

quick edit slightly off topic:

 

As to combat discipline, it really has to be investigated more carefully... I've heard it said it adds a fixed value to damage, but then you'd need to look at say 1/100th of listed value or something to get a realistic increase... more stuff to test one day.

[Barsby 0]

For the seraphim with just Warding Energy (I'm not going to touch DP since I don't know what sort of bonus it provides etc, if you have data for that it's worth incorporating. I do know the increased absorption on it really is mitigation, not +Block) you have 4 sources of increasing Block Warding Energy: WEL (Fixed increase from what I can see), WEL Unlocked modifiers on items, Default +Block from the buff, Gold mod providing more Block (on a test level 200 character with 75 WEL and 75 Revered Tech (and level 80ish WE based on full Endijian's) +BWE was at ~+500 or more damage. Probably half of this was from the gold mod, and I saw one thing that surprised me.

Revered Tech Lore modifies the value so higher levels of Tech Lore means more damage blocked. (Add to that that WEL is increased via Combat Art skills and you can get 2 for the price of 1 even if you don't have +all skills and only +CASkills.)

 

For those of us who do not have blank level 200 characters to play with... do you have the numbers for how that 500 blocked came to be? As in, what the 75 warding grants and how much was from Revered Lore?

 

From the wiki site, it says level 75 warding energy lore grants 27 damage absorb. It doesn't list how much revered tech lore will boost by, but does say level 75 boosts damage by 180%. Does the revered lore damage boost just get multiplied by the warding energy absorb - ie: 27*180=48ish, so new absorb value is 75 or so? No idea how much a full high level Endijian's set will affect that, and then the gold mod adds more block. Does the revered lore improvement apply to the gold mod as well?

 

What I'm chasing is how effective the warding energy buff will be without revered lore. My seraphim is a dual wield, exalted warrior type. I was intending taking concentration and warding energy as my last 2 skill picks as my way of compensating for not wearing a shield. I took Revered Focus to unlock the CA mods for divine protection and warding energy, I wasn't concerned with damage from that tree. If that means my warding energy is going to be severely gimped by not taking revered lore to buff it, I will be a sad panda. If it's going to be less, but only a bit less, then I should be fine.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Barsby

[Zinsho 0]

To make it more simply:

 

Level 99 WEL (75 + bonus on this toon) = +36 block, so at level 200 +56 makes sense.

Level 91 Warding Energy by default gives +47 Block (2 + [(Level - 1) / 2])

with Block as a gold mod it gives 97 (5 + (Level-1)/2)

or a total of (Level + 6) Block Warding Energy

 

This value is directly multiplied by the +% Damage on Revered Technology Lore.

At level 114, that's 271.6%, which gives block of 360 on WE alone (so 396 total)

At level 200 RT Lore you'd have +377.7% Damage, which would give 463.4 block from WE.

This is all with level 1 Warding Energy and bonus from gear, so you could easily bring the value higher by overpumping runes/gear to go above max level without penalty.

 

Divine protection on it's own can provide lots of mitigation, huge shield pools and 100% damage absorption (so nothing touches your lifepool), you won't be gimped by not taking Revered Lore, you'll simply not have quite the same damage absorption... people can go without taking any HP damage without it so it will work.

[Barsby 0]

Thanks Zinsho. I'll have to seriously re-think.

 

From those numbers, at 75 base warding energy lore I'm looking at about 100 absorb, without revered tech lore. Blah. I kinda think I made her all wrong now. I already put the point in concentration and that's pure waste if I'm not going to bother with warding energy. Knew I shoulda grabbed constitution first. I can't even switch her over to a shopper now. WTB respec! Or character editor

[Dobri 55]

oh-kay... Thanks Zin. I'll keep up with the testing. Right now I'm fooling around with a secondary Seraphim shopper, trying to purchase a good armor and shoulders for this one. Actually, immortality may be close than people think. Right now I'm seeing armors with damage mitigation based on armor lore mastery somewhat reguarly - I even saw an armor with STACKED mitigation - meaning phys + all channel, which provided 22.3% phys + 13% rest. If I manage to get the same on the shoulders, things will get pretty interesting - 22.3% + 22.3% + 11.6% (wings) + 11.1% (glacial) = 66.8% from equip and 20.2% from toughness - that 87% at really low level - 132. In niobium these values actually improve. Can't wait to hit 140 and try again!

 

I'll keep everyone apprised of the progress

[Zinsho 0]

Double checked last night and the TG has the same scaling Block Warding Energy values (2 + (Level - 1)/2) Of course thanks to the display this is rounded down. To really be sure how it calculates those values I'd need to take a few values from XX.X level T-Energy Shroud for comparison. (Since I'm playing TG and don't have access to an in game seraphim where I have 'real' values)

[chattius 2,535]

I think I add the question here: any numbers for the effect of accumulator or mechanical part trophies? How good are they in regenerating shields .Will they work even in combat?

I feel ashamed ,but I never played a seraphim or a TG in sacred 2 yet, they looked too futuristic for my taste.

[Zinsho 0]

Unless values are misleading:

 

Base Shield Regeneration (Out of Combat) = [Max Shield / 20 ] per second. It is supposed to repair itself in 20seconds... however I'll double check this tonight when I'm at a PC and can confirm the values.

 

In Combat Shield Regeneration (for TG only) = (3 + 1*CA Level) * (1 + %Damage on Tactics Lore). This cannot be modified in any other way.

 

I can't remember the exact values on the Warding Energy Trophies however I do have a few somewhere that I should be able to use to get a rough idea of the bonus. They only work in out of combat situations however.

 

What is worth noting however is that Shield Regeneration essentially works like this:

+100% = Repaired in 10s

+300% = Repaired in 5s

+700% = Repaired in 2.5s

+1500% = Repaired in 1.25s

 

(Based on the fact that 20s/(1+ShieldRegen%) = time to regen fully) So the trophies are lovely for out of combat... you take the few steps away to no longer be hit, the moment you see your shield start increasing you pop a trophy and you can speed things up drastically to get right back into combat.)

 

I'm fairly certain it will work out to Base Value on part (50%) * (1 + Max Shield Increase%)

[Dobri 55]

OK, all set!! The test was an outstanding success. After an exhausting shopping spree in niobium that lasted over 15 hours, I am ready to provide the results. I'm sort of still under the influence of the exaltation... sheesh!

 

Since this is a wicked result, I'll set it up in the seraphim discussion section. Here's the link:

 

http://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=12139

[Zinsho 0]

I know you're showing off Dobri... but isn't this kind of off the topic of energy shields? (Let alone block warding energy). I suppose it does still fit though. Although invulnerability via mitigation isn't quite the same as warding energy testing.

[Dobri 55]

Ah, come on This is why I asked in the first place. I had to get behind the basic of warding energy, realize how it works in order to see how quickly a build can become immortal. So far the answer is level 140.

[Zinsho 0]

Would being able to CA spam a CA that provides 100% mitigation in short order count as immortality... even if you could be hurt in the few seconds it takes to reach that point? Because if yes I'm pretty sure I can hit it sooner. It is an impressive feat... however I can't see it properly until I get home.

[Dobri 55]

Yeah, I was thinking about mass spamming DP, but still... It still has some problems associated with it, because if your DP falls and you get stunned... bad, bad, very bad.

 

But anyway, the flat mitigation is still useful, provided you top it up with some DM. That is indeed a perma-immortality. I'm starting to think that if you have 2 Unique amulets for +DM (there are 2 types, I had level 73/80/80, which is way back in levels) and you manage to buy stacked all channel dm on shoulder and armor, you can do it in platinum.

[Zinsho 0]

Actually I meant Jolting Touch with the the 25%+0.5% per CA Level mitigation. Get the regen time to say 1s, that's 3x per duration of ~3.5s... so 76.5% mitigation at level 1 like that, if you boost the level then you can easily get it to 40-50% mitigation and still spam it, so you only need 20-30% mitigation from gear.

[Dobri 55]

I see... I have to try that out. Still, that's TG stuff and TG is your specialty, Zin Thanks for the info. That's a wicked CA vs bosses (you practically take minimal damage at higher levels) and should be really good at the end of a combo with a few other CAs, like deathly spears I guess.

[Zinsho 0]

Or cast it before DS... it traps the target too... so it can't move away from your spears.

[Llama8 8]

Or cast it before DS... it traps the target too... so it can't move away from your spears.

 

On a related note, can a rooted target (Jolting Touch) suffer from knockback (Deathly Spears mod)?

[Zinsho 0]

Not sure. I haven't used the knockback on DS in the last few iterations of my TGs... the gore mod is more fun, although I rarely get hurt it's extra damage if the case occurs.

[Zinsho 0]

Not sure. I haven't used the knockback on DS in the last few iterations of my TGs... the gore mod is more fun, although I rarely get hurt it's extra damage if the case occurs.