Armor vs Damage mitigation

[Munera 1]

When you’re playing a build, and you want your character to be tougher, you have to decide what are you going to socket into your armor. Well, I wondered what would be the best amulet, Artamark’s Star (more armor per damage type) or Tanit’s Collar (more damage mitigation and increased Armour Lore). A silver Artamark's Star level 50 gives you 25 armor per damage type, and a silver Tanit’s collar provides 1.2 damage mitigation. So when will armor be more valuable than mitigation?

 

Damage with Artamak’s Star:

 

Health points – damage * damage/ (damage + armor + 25)

 

Damage with Tanit’s Collar:

 

Health points – damage * [damage/(damage + armor)]*[(100 – 1.2)/100]

 

Then:

 

Health points – damage * damage/ (damage + armor + 25) > Health points – damage * [damage/(damage + armor)]*[(100 – 1.2)/100]

 

Damage2/(damage+armor+25) < 0.988* Damage2/(damage + armor)

 

0.988>[(damage + armor)/(damage + armor +25]

 

And at the end:

 

2058.3333> damage + armor

 

That means the lower our armor is and the lower our enemy’s damage is, the better the idea of enhancing our armor would be; and the higher our armor is and the higher our enemy’s damage is, the better the idea of enhancing our damage mitigation would be.

[Schot 407]

Something that might make Armor a better choice is if you had Armor +XX%. If you're gear has Armor +XX% already in it then the benefits of +Armor may be more substantial than Mitigation. I imagine an Artamark's Star would combine very nicely with a Niob Anneal smith art. A factor worth considering.

 

As for your direct comparison between your Star and Mitigation I really can't say. There's just too many variables in Sacred 2 to be certain of anything.

[Munera 1]

Well, I didn't mean Armor in general, only the flat value, not percentage (obviously you get more benefit from Armor + X% having a high flat value than a smaller one). But I think that having an armor percentage bonus won't change the results, as it will be multiplying in both sides, so it goes out. Remember that resistances are applied before the mitigation, so if you have extra enhanced armor, it will be a little more armor against the same damage, whereas having mitigation, it will be a little less armor than in the first case, the same damage (so there will be more incoming damage), but part of that incoming damage will be ommited. What happens (and that's what I said in my first post)? The damage reduced by the extra armor (whether enhanced or not) will be greater than the one omited by the mitigation, if we have a low normal armor base; but if we have a high one, it will be the other way round.

[gogoblender 3,070]

Well, I didn't mean Armor in general, only the flat value,

 

 

But the game doesn't work like this right? Why are you discounting a part of the equation, especially with Artamark's star which has such huge, H U G E base...

 

I'm trying to understand how this discussion will come up with info that will keep my toon from dying the next time when working with the properties of Artamark's star when you you are discounting one of the most integral qualities of the unique?

 

 

 

 

 

gogo

[Munera 1]

Artamak's Star's armor seems to be huge, put it's actually 1/5 of the armor bonus displayed. For example, when it displays 130, it means 26 armor bonus per damage type. What I'm doing is to compare that armor bonus with the damage mitigation provided by other items. I'm writing this because I think people usally overestimate that unique amulet. They see a huge armor bonus, even greater than a heavy armor's one, but they don't realize that it is 26*5, and that they will only get benefit from the physical bonus and another element.

I realised that and I thought it was very similar to the damage mitigation, so I compared them and I found out when it's better to get that base armor bonus instead of the damage mitigation (the Artamak's Star instead of Tanit's Collar or Wardargon's Circlet).

[gogoblender 3,070]

let's do direct comparison. What level of the star versus what level of tanit's collar. Mods on hand is another concept here...it means what we can get at what levels...and what is a more efficient way of denying damage to monsters with the fewest numbers of sockets. For example... at level 25 ...would it be more more efficient to socket x number of sockets worth of armor resistances or mitigation to, let's say, deny or cancel out x amount of damage?

 

Which of those two mods at level 25 will do a better job of denying more damage and is therefore the better yielding choice to socket?

 

Are you telling me...that you think... at level 25 .. I will get more damage denied to my toon from an enemy from socketing one item of mitgation rather than one item of armor resistance?

 

 

 

gogo

[Munera 1]

This is not a supposition, it's purely mathematics.

If you want to know what would be the best socketable item at level 25 (for example), all you have to do is to get the amulets you think are the best and compare them, that's why are mathematics for.

 

So mathematically ask yourself: when will be an Artamak's Star level 25 the best choice if I also have a Tanit's Collar level 24?

 

That will be:

 

Health - damage * damage/(damage + [armor bonus %/100] * [armor + armor added]) > Health - damage * damage/(damage + [armor bonus % ( the Tanit's Collar's + Armor lore bonus % to armor will be already added)/100]*armor) * (100 - 1 (dont know damage mitigation)/100)

 

If you calculate correctly, and you simplify as much as you can, you'll get to something like this:

 

Damage + Armor < X

 

That tells you that if you add to your current armor certain damage, and it's lower than X, Socketing the Star will be the best choice. But if your current armor + certain damage (which depends on the enemy) is higher than X, socketing a Tanit's Collar would be a better option.

[gogoblender 3,070]

lol

 

here, let me spin this another way

 

True or false... we will get better yields for socketing armor resistances rather than damage mitigation in level 25 toons?

 

 

Is it possible to ask this and get a general answer?

 

 

 

gogo

[Munera 1]

As you said, It depends

 

If you're playing a build with little armor (like a mage) it will be better to forge resistances, but if you're playing a melee build and you have and you want a high armor, socketing mitigation will be better

[Schot 407]

I think I'm starting to see your point here Munera.

 

Each of these item modifiers have their place but it's a question of how best and when to use these item mods. When factoring these two mods I would guess that Armor +X is probably the most useful at level 50. The times that we will benefit from Mitigation most would be when fighting opponents with abnormally high damage. Against a boss for example. It's possible that Mitigation is best used against bosses.

 

But... There are soooo many variables to factor in before coming to a conclusion. To make the most accurate assessment we would need to take into account all equipment being worn because much of our equipment will be contributing to the strength of our Armor and mitigation. We would of course need also to factor in Skills and Buffs. Possibly even which class is being played.

 

I understand the theoretical points you're making based in mathematics but if there is one thing I have learned about Sacred Underworld and Fallen Angel it is that "things don't always add up" as we expect them to. So the only appraoch to finding a solution in my opinion is a practical one.

 

Have you tested the 2 modifiers in game?

[Munera 1]

I absolutely agree with you: one thing is theory and other thing is practice.

 

Of course I've tested it. In fact, I started to investigate this because I had some Stars and Collars, and for me, they were all about damage reduction but I didn't know which one would be the best for me. I did the theorical test, and it says Star is better if Damage + Armor is lower than about 2500, and I actually have 5000 of Armor (with Stars forged), so I quickly unsocket and socket and now, although I have 4500 armor, I get less damage.

 

And another thing (this is practical). Mitigation isn't good only with Bosses. It's also good when fighting large enemy troops, which is also an "abnormally high damage". I'm playing with a Shadow Warrior, and that means I'm a shepherd and I have to deal with a lot of enemies at the same time. The GR helps, and combined with damage paliation (GR can be modified for that) is perfect.

[chattius 2,526]

Before doing any calculations it is always good to varify that the used formula's are correct. Where did you get them?

 

Your formula would mean that having no armour and receiving a very big hit the damage would never be higher than shown in last kill. But our tests showed that in niob you get 3 times bigger damage if hit with no armour. So I think your formula is not the used one.

 

We were working on armour calculations in the demigod thread. Mitigation has a bug and it is directly added. So you can get 100% mitigation. The armour formula is open ended.

 

So if you have 98% mitigation already and add a 2% from an amulet you are invulnerable against most attacks.

A single artamark can prevent the damage to be tripled in niob.

 

I consider damage mitigation as a sort of virtual hitpoints. 50% mitigation and you can receive double the damage before dying. 80% and it's 5 times the damage, 90% and it's 10 times, 95% and it is 20 times 99% and it is 100 times,....and at 100% no damage is geing through - life leech and other direct damage ignored.

 

Armour is reducing this received damaged. So best is a mix if you can't go for mitigation way beyond 70+%.

[Munera 1]

Your formula would mean that having no armour and receiving a very big hit the damage would never be higher than shown in last kill. But our tests showed that in niob you get 3 times bigger damage if hit with no armour. So I think your formula is not the used one.

 

I don't understand that.

 

The formula is the damage calculation in the wiki. I add a bit of armor in one side and I reduce the damage in the other side.

 

Hey! I have an idea. Let's convert damage mitigation into virtual armor. However, mitigation depends on both damage and armor.

 

I've reached the next formula (X= Extra % armor bonus to current armor, even if you have % armor bonus modifier) (Y=Damage Mitigation):

 

X = {Damage + 1/[(100 - Y)/100]} *armor}/armor

 

How did I get that? With the wiki damage formula:

 

damage * damage/(damage + X*armor) = damage * damage/ (damage + armor)* 1/2 (50% damage mitigation)

 

At the end, you get to:

 

X = {Damge + 2 (which is 1/[50/100]) * armor}/armor

 

If you have 66.66666% damage mitigation (2/3) you'll get +3 at the end, if you have 75%, you'll get + 4, and if you have 100% you'll get + infinite, as 1/0 is infinite

 

I think this formula is correct, because the higher the damage, the higher your virtual armor bonus is, the lower the damage, the lower the virtual armor, and it works with all armor values and damage mitigation values. If you have 0 armor, your armor bonus will be infinite, because the armor bonus you have to add to 0 in order to change 3500 damge into 3000 (for example) will be infinite. That "conceptual mistake" happens because damage mitigation isn't armor bonus really. The same occurs when you try to convert it into virtual life. If you have 50% mitigation, you'll have double life, but that isn't correct at all, because if you have 0 armor, you'll have the same life as normally.

 

Once you have converted your mitigation into virtual armor bonus, you can compare and contrast it with an armol base bonus. Obviously, you'll get less benefits from the virtual armos bonus % if you have a low armor.

 

What do you think?

[chattius 2,526]

The problem is: is the formula in the wiki correct?

 

Somewhere in the demigod thread below are damage numbers with always the same beast doing an attack on always the same player level. The only difference is the used armour. By changing the armour values we got a formula which showed how armour affects damage. And having no armour in niob tribled the damage. That is the reason why an artamark is so useful: if you forget to change your relicts you have still some base armour against every damage type.

 

The 'How to become a demigod thread'

 

Sorry I never had english at school, so I lack the mathematical english therms. I learned from american kids from an nearby US garnison when I grew up and we never spoke about maths