Doppelganger's CA usage observations.

[idbeholdME 394]

Did some tests with the Doppelganger and this is the behavior so far:

1) With no mods, the Doppelganger simply uses basic attacks and never uses any CAs. Was this always the case?

2) With either of the silver mods, he gains access to the CAs of the respective trees (Gruesome Inquisition or Astute Supremacy). Here is the spell list entry for the Doppelganger:

spells = {
        entry0 = { "in_in_verstuemmelung" },
        entry1 = { "in_in_hinrichtung" },
        entry2 = { "in_in_pranger" },
        entry3 = { "in_in_eifer" },
        entry4 = { "in_in_kasteiung" },
        entry5 = { "in_po_faecherblitz" },
        entry6 = { "in_po_machtstoss" },
        entry7 = { "in_po_machtsog" },
        entry8 = { "in_po_vergeltung" },
        entry9 = { "in_uw_seelenraub" },
        entry10 = { "in_uw_versklavung" },
        entry11 = { "in_uw_schaendung" },
        entry12 = { "in_uw_entsetzen" },
        entry13 = { "in_uw_seelenfaenger" },
    },

In his spell list, he has access to every single CA except Doppelganger so that he doesn't clone himself over and over (apparently, he could in the earlier game versions). HOWEVER.... Without mods, he doesn't have access to any of those and just uses regular attacks. If you pick Gruesome Inquisition, he presumably gains access to spells 0-4 (GI CAs). If you pick Astute Supremacy, he gains access to spells 5-8 (AS CAs). This seems hardcoded, as if you swap the spell order and put the AS spells first in the list, he will use those when you pick the GI mod. But here comes the problem. The CAs seem to have absolutely no cooldown for the Doppelganger and he ends up only over using the top 1 or 2 spells from the entire aspect and repeats them constantly. In case of GI, I only ever got him to use Ruthless Mutilation (entry0). With AS, he mostly spams Levin Array (entry5) and occasionally uses Raving Thrust (entry6).

With this spell order, I've never seen him use any of the buffs or any other CAs. Even though he should have access to the entire aspect with the proper mod, he is just stuck repeating the same 1, max 2 moves over and over (with an occasional normal attack).

From the info I've found on the internet, it would seem that the Doppelganger is supposed to be using all the various CAs, including the buffs etc. I'm playing with the PFP, which uses the vanilla behavior, but all I'm getting is what I described above. Changing up the spell order in the list only determines which one or 2 moves he is going to use. I moved entry 4 (Purifying Chastisement) to the first place and now he at least casts the buff but still then proceeds to only spam Ruthless Mutilation over and over, never moving to any of the other GI moves.

Did the Doppelganger's behavior change at any point? Or do I have to wear a gear piece with + To All Combat Arts to get him to use more of the CAs? There is this note on the wiki:

"If gear with +CA/+all CAs is worn, these arts will become avaible to use for ZD (socketed runes won't work). Ruthless Mutilation, Dislodged Spirit and Frenetic Fervor will be used most frequently in case of +all CAs, he will also use all three Inqusitor buffs."

I assume you have to wear gear with +all CAs for him to get access to the Nefarious Netherworld aspect, but still, it probably wouldn't solve the base behavior... I will eventually try it with +all CAs gear to test it and post results later, but does anyone still remember some details about the exact behavior?

 

EDIT:

Wearing gear with + to All Combat Arts makes zero difference to the behavior.

Tried creating a duplicate Ruthless Mutilation in spells.txt with a 10 second cooldown and gave it to the Doppelganger instead of the regular one. The result is that he uses it and then only uses normal attacks until that cooldown runs its course. Meaning he will simply not use more than 2 spells. This probably means that the problem is not in the spell listings themselves, but somewhere else.

If you pick GI silver mod, he will only spam the attack that is listed first. If you move Purifying Chastisement to entry0, he will cast that and then proceed to only spam spell at entry1. Found no way to make him use entry2-4. Same for AS, only ever seen him use entry5 and 6, no way to make him use 7 and 8. Also, no idea how to make him cast anything from Nefarious Netherworld. Any gear bonuses seem to make no difference.

Would be nice to check how he behaved in Fallen Angel and if it was changed in Ice & Blood. The description on the wiki had to have come from somewhere.

 

EDIT 2:

Slight success. If you activate both aspect upgrades

{"et_double_inqui", 0, 1000, 3, 9 },
{"et_double_power", 0, 1000, 4, 9 },

at once, you can make him use spells at slots 1, 2, 5 and 6. Doesn't matter what aspect they are, you can even put Nefarious Netherworld spells in there if you want to. Now, by moving Purifying Chastisement and Frenetic Fervor to entry 0 and 1 and Ruthless Mutilation to slot 5, he uses Purifying Chastisement, casts Frenetic Fervor when available and spams Ruthless Mutilation. Seems that he only ever uses one attack CA and never moves to the next ones no matter what. So far, it seems it is possible to make him use 3 buff/passive CAs and one offensive one. I put Purifying Chastisement at entry0, Reverse Polarity at entry5 and Frenetic Fervor at entry6. After that, he will keep using any combat CA that will be at entry1. As I have picked the GI mod for the Ganger, I will make him cast Purifying Chastisement and Frenetic Fervor, and probably make him use Callous Execution instead of Ruthless Mutilation. Basically, if you want to have any control over the CAs he uses, you have to edit the spell order in creatures.txt. And if you want him to have access to 4 spells instead of just 2, you also have to use the mod trick mentioned above.

Experimented with pretty much everything I could think of, including changing his AI behavior. No difference. Also, teleporting anywhere or entering caves seems to break his AI. He stops using CAs altogether and has to be recast :/

Very disappointing so far.

 

So now the question is:

Can this restriction to 2 entries per aspect be expanded to contain more CAs from the list spell list?

Can the Doppelganger be made to cycle through them all properly and not get stuck using the same one over and over?

Edited June 9, 2023 by idbeholdME

[idbeholdME 394]

@Flix @dimitrius154 @Lindor

Older thread, but I'd still like to ask the experienced modders now. Has any deep dive ever been done into the Doppelganger's behavior? Is there any way to control his behavior or make him use spells at entries other than 1,2,5 and 6?

From what the internet is saying, he seems to have been able to use pretty much everything in his spell list in the past, but that's no longer the case. Comparing with the pre Ice & Blood version of the game would probably bring some insight into this mystery.

As said in the above post, I've tried pretty much everything I could think of.

[dimitrius154 612]

31 minutes ago, idbeholdME said:

Has any deep dive ever been done into the Doppelganger's behavior? Is there any way to control his behavior or make him use spells at entries other than 1,2,5 and 6?

Ah, that one. It uses either "Hireling_distance" or "Hireling_mage_no_defence", depending on the attack in question. I've not fixed the buff casting until the Addendum, if I recall correctly, so buff casts happen only once.

[idbeholdME 394]

On 6/9/2023 at 6:56 PM, dimitrius154 said:

Ah, that one. It uses either "Hireling_distance" or "Hireling_mage_no_defence", depending on the attack in question. I've not fixed the buff casting until the Addendum, if I recall correctly, so buff casts happen only once.

Well, I tried giving the Doppelganger different AI behaviors, but didn't seem to do much. It uses "Invalid" by default. One could probably define a custom AI in behavior.txt with custom conditions, triggers etc, but my attempts a couple months ago didn't result in anything.

But the buff recasting is not the main issue. When entering an area transition, just remember to recast him and he resumes using the spells. The main problem is that he is only able to use spells at slots 0,1 and 5,6 and that is ONLY if you activate both his silver mod aspects at once. And it has to be 3 non-attack CAs +1 attack CA. Never got him to use multiple different attacks.

My initial suspicion was because the attack CAs have no cooldown, so he just repeated the same one over and over. But even if I modified Ruthless Mutilation to have a 10 second base CD, he just used Ruthless Mutilation once and then used normal attack until the cooldown ran its course, never using spells at entries 2,3 or 4.

The main reason I'm looking into this is because the internet is claiming he was able to use pretty much everything in the past, even the Nefarious Netherworld CAs with the proper gear, which I've been unable to replicate.

Edited June 11, 2023 by idbeholdME

[dimitrius154 612]

1 hour ago, idbeholdME said:

Well, I tried giving the Doppelganger different AI behaviors, but didn't seem to do much.

The A.I. selection is hadcoded to the spell function.

1 hour ago, idbeholdME said:

never using spells at entries 2,3 or 4.

Hmm, the Doppel seems to use it's entire spell set in the Addendum... oh, and I know, why. Because I've changed it's second behaviour from "Hireling_brave_ex" to "Hireling_mage_no_defense". Have I even cared to mention it in the notes?...

[idbeholdME 394]

On 6/11/2023 at 4:15 PM, dimitrius154 said:

The A.I. selection is hadcoded to the spell function.

Hmm, the Doppel seems to use it's entire spell set in the Addendum... oh, and I know, why. Because I've changed it's second behaviour from "Hireling_brave_ex" to "Hireling_mage_no_defense". Have I even cared to mention it in the notes?...

Thanks for the insight. Although I am not sure what you mean by the second behavior. I assume you don't mean the behavior the Doppelganger has assigned in creatures.txt, correct?

This is what it looks like in my creatures.txt:

Spoiler

mgr.createCreature {
    id = 1929,
    itemtype_id = 4,
    name = "SC_Inquisitor_clone",
    behaviour = "Invalid",
    dangerclass = 7,
    groupmaxcount = 1,
    elite_creature_id = 1929,
    probabilityforelite = 0.000000,
    rank = 999,
    tenergy_creature_id = 1929,
    livesremaining = 0,
    unconscioustime = 20,
    palettebits = "1111111111111111",
    monstertype = 0,
    faction_id = 1,
    equipset_id = 6,
    modelscale = 1.000000,
    rise_from_ground = 0,
    has_corpse = 1,
    has_soul = 1,
    can_strafe = 0,
    spells = {
        entry0 = { "in_in_kasteiung" },
        entry1 = { "in_in_eifer" },
        entry2 = { "in_po_faecherblitz" },
        entry3 = { "in_po_machtstoss" },
        entry4 = { "in_in_pranger" },
        entry5 = { "in_in_hinrichtung" },
        entry6 = { "in_in_verstuemmelung" }, 
        entry7 = { "in_po_machtsog" },
        entry8 = { "in_po_vergeltung" },
        entry9 = { "in_uw_seelenraub" },
        entry10 = { "in_uw_versklavung" },
        entry11 = { "in_uw_schaendung" },
        entry12 = { "in_uw_entsetzen" },
        entry13 = { "in_uw_seelenfaenger" },
    },
}

Ignore the mixed up spell order, it's how I have it set up at the moment so he uses some more spells than 1 by default. The behavior here is what I tried changing, mostly tested around with Hireling_brave.

Edited June 14, 2023 by idbeholdME

[Flix 5,116]

For most summoned creatures, the behavior in creatures.txt is ignored. Instead there is a hard coded link between the spellclass and a behavior defined in behaviour.txt.

[idbeholdME 394]

22 hours ago, Flix said:

For most summoned creatures, the behavior in creatures.txt is ignored. Instead there is a hard coded link between the spellclass and a behavior defined in behaviour.txt.

Ah, thanks.

So nothing I'd be able to change myself then. Or... could I theoretically get around that by changing the definition of Hireling_brave_ex to be the same as Hireling_mage_no_defense in behavior.txt, create a new replacement, say "Hireling_brave_ex2", copy the original's definition and change all the creatures that used the original into the new one? I would not be editting the link (beyond my abilities), but getting around it purely in behavior.txt?

Edited June 15, 2023 by idbeholdME

[Flix 5,116]

5 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

Ah, thanks.

So nothing I'd be able to change myself then. Or... could I theoretically get around that by changing the definition of Hireling_brave_ex to be the same as Hireling_mage_no_defense in behavior.txt, create a new replacement, say "Hireling_brave_ex2", copy the original's definition and change all the creatures that used the original into the new one? I would not be editting the link (beyond my abilities), but getting around it purely in behavior.txt?

Could work.  I've done similar maneuvers in D2F. You'd also be affecting any other summons linked to that behavior though. 

[idbeholdME 394]

18 minutes ago, Flix said:

Could work.  I've done similar maneuvers in D2F. You'd also be affecting any other summons linked to that behavior though. 

True. In creatures.txt, there is not that many entities that use it, only Ker Demon, Dryad summons and DM's Protector. But there is no way to tell what else uses that behavior through the hardcoded way. SW's Skeletons or resurrected enemies? Destroyers? Inquisitor's minions from Subjugation? I'll probably try it as an experiment but won't stick with it as it would probably break more things in the background...

Although, speaking of Ker Demon, I just noticed it has 2 spells defined in creatures.txt:

spells = {
        entry0 = { "enemy_area_meteor" },
        entry1 = { "enemy_feuerball_homing" },
    },

I am currently playing a Ker Inquisitor, but whenever I summon the Demon, all it does it smack enemies with its fists. Never seen it cast either of those spells.

Nevermind, wrong creature. The god power demon only has double hit.

Edited June 15, 2023 by idbeholdME

[Flix 5,116]

1 hour ago, idbeholdME said:

True. In creatures.txt, there is not that many entities that use it, only Ker Demon, Dryad summons and DM's Protector. But there is no way to tell what else uses that behavior through the hardcoded way. SW's Skeletons or resurrected enemies? Destroyers? Inquisitor's minions from Subjugation? I'll probably try it as an experiment but won't stick with it as it would probably break more things in the background...

Although, speaking of Ker Demon, I just noticed it has 2 spells defined in creatures.txt:

spells = {
        entry0 = { "enemy_area_meteor" },
        entry1 = { "enemy_feuerball_homing" },
    },

I am currently playing a Ker Inquisitor, but whenever I summon the Demon, all it does it smack enemies with its fists. Never seen it cast either of those spells.

Nevermind, wrong creature. The god power demon only has double hit.

Behaviors are also assigned to taskcreatures in quest.txt and questscripts.txt.

I think in PFP the Protectors will be the only summons with a spellclass linked to Hireling_brave_ex

SW's summons should use Hireling_brave

[idbeholdME 394]

14 hours ago, Flix said:

Behaviors are also assigned to taskcreatures in quest.txt and questscripts.txt.

I think in PFP the Protectors will be the only summons with a spellclass linked to Hireling_brave_ex

SW's summons should use Hireling_brave

Thanks for the info. So I could essentially do it and revert if I were to play a Dragon Mage with Protectors.

Will probably get to try it sometime next week then.

[idbeholdME 394]

Unfortunately did nothing. Just brought back the original behavior where the DP only spams Ruthless Mutilation constantly. Will stick with my workaround where he uses at least 3 out of the 5 CAs from the aspect.

[Flix 5,116]

2 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

Unfortunately did nothing. Just brought back the original behavior where the DP only spams Ruthless Mutilation constantly. Will stick with my workaround where he uses at least 3 out of the 5 CAs from the aspect.

Yeah that would be because there's no cooldown on Ruthless Mutilation. Also that AI won't use regular weapon attacks. I suspect more was done in Addendum than just changing the linked AI.

[idbeholdME 394]

2 hours ago, Flix said:

Yeah that would be because there's no cooldown on Ruthless Mutilation. Also that AI won't use regular weapon attacks. I suspect more was done in Addendum than just changing the linked AI.

In that case, it could probably be toyed with by creating duplicate spell entries of the Inquisitor's CAs, linking those to the Doppelganger so it doesn't affect that player character and giving them varying cooldowns so that he somewhat cycles through them.

Will see if I want to experiment with it... The way I currently have it with the silver mod workaround is sufficient for my needs. Purifying Chastisement, Frenetic Fervor whenever off cooldown and spamming Callous Execution.

But his behavior probably had to have been changed with the Ice & Blood release, considering what most of the internet (including the wiki) says on the topic.