Bits of Information from Sacred 2 Developers...?

[rhs408 7]

Every once in a while I read something along the lines of "devs have said that this works like this," or for example, devs have said that Survival Bonus affects MF. Where did this information come from? Was there an interview done with an Sacred 2 developer at some point? What else have devs said about Sacred 2? If anyone has answers to any of these questions, please post them here, thank you.

[gogoblender 3,072]

Hi Rhs

 

About a year and a half ago, when Sacred 2 was first released, the devs were hanging out a lot on the Sacred International Forum. We've actually had a couple show up here on DarkMatters as well, and we also ran an interview with the dev who was in charge of sound for the game. The other devs can be seen in various threads around the SIF answering questions and jumping in when they were interested. As well, we have a number of members from Darkmatters...three I can mention, Llama, Schot and Knuckles who were involved in the Beta and would be privy to direct contact with the devs at the time the game was in development.

 

 

 

gogo

[Schot 407]

Those Devs are like Leprechauns I tells yah. Impossible to catch one but should you ever be so lucky as to corner one then much wonders can be discovered, lol. Like gogo said, they would occasionally appear out of no where and drop little hints here and there. The deepest of their secrets were naturally riddled with vague description.

Another source where some of us take reference is from our experiences in Sacred 2's Beta process. Sacred 2's beta was a closed beta with a tight NDA for any who were involved. Some of us, like myself, were released from the shackles of that NDA and so can talk about it. Oh and no doubt the Devs have an even tighter NDA which is why it's so hard to get info out of them.

 

There is one deeply hidden secret that was unearthed by a beta tester. he contacted me about it and after I had done some "exploring", (not in the game but else where), I came across that jewel. It was said and perhaps part of Sacred 2's original plans that Shopping for items could be improved upon by completing quests. This has never been explored to my knowledge. All I can say about it is that it was intended but I was never able to find proof as to whether it was actually implemented or not. It would make sense for it to exist though since the Shadow Warrior can not choose Bargaining...

[FrostElfGuard 9]

Re: shopping and quests. I think the official manual mentions that if you complete several quests in an area the merchants will lower their prices.

 

Re: the 'devs have said this': I have met the devs at the GDC in 2007 (oops! I had originally typed 2008. It was August 2007). I was granted a meeting with Hans-Arno Wegner, the lead developer for Sacred1 and 2. Sacred1 was in it's last days, and he unexpectedly told me to ask him ANYTHING I wanted. Anything is a pretty big field. I wish I'd've known that this opportunity was coming... I would've had so many questions ready!

 

I also met the other English speaking devs: Christian Altrogge and Frank Rentmeister (Quality Assurance). I remember Christian was wearing elf ears, and very much into the game... very enthusiastic--in short, a fun, great guy. Frank was more serious, but equally friendly. As a moderator for the official international board (at the time) they all treated me very very well. Christian was very excited about the Temple Guardian (a new class at the time) and he also told me that the Seraphim had the fastest base movement speed of the 4 ready during the demonstration at the GDC (Seraphim, Shadow Warrior, Dryad and Temple Guardian, I think).

 

I still conduct searches from time to time to unearth what has been published on the web about Sacred and Sacred2, and the devs.

 

One of the gems that Hans-Arno told me was that Sacred 2 was developed from the maximum character level down... to prevent excesses like the Vampiress in S1, and the weak Melee Mage. (The Vampiress was overpowered from the beginning and got insanely powerful the more levels she attained, and the Melee Mage did not scale up in power with leveling).

 

So. There's my 2 cents worth.

 

====

 

edited and added later:

 

 

I used Hans-Arno Wegner's name to find a pre-Sacred2 release interview and he said this:

 

Jonric: How about special pieces of equipment? Are you creating many rare or unique ones for players to find and collect?

 

Hans-Arno Wegner: All of the equipment just discussed can be found as so-called standard drops, but there are tons of rare, unique and set items to find as well. I always like to remember the reaction of our customers in Sacred when the first player entered the city wearing sunglasses instead of a helmet. Everyone wanted to get one, and we had a run on our servers toward the island Mal-Ork-A. You can anticipate more special things like this in Sacred 2...

Edited April 8, 2010 by FrostElfGuard

[Llama8 8]

Yeah, the beta was great for that, even with the language barrier the German devs were very helpful. I think the UW beta was probably better from the point of view that the devs weren't as concerned about loosing their jobs...

[rhs408 7]

Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated. That's understandable about the NDA's that the developers likely have...

 

Do any of you have a link to where devs were discussing the mechanics behind MF and drop quality?

 

Schot, do you (or any other Beta testers) still have any contact info for the devs that you knew? Ask them to shed a bit more light on how drop quality works!

Edited April 8, 2010 by rhs408

[Llama8 8]

Do any of you have a link to where devs were discussing the mechanics behind MF and drop quality?

The beta forum, which doesnt' exist anymore (and even if it did we couldn't give you a link & you wou;dn't be able to access it)...

 

Schot, do you (or any other Beta testers) still have any contact info for the devs that you knew? Ask them to shed a bit more light on how drop quality works!

It's kinda difficult getting them to answer since they've moved on to other jobs. I've tried, but after not getting responses for a few times you stop asking.

[Little Faith 24]

Do any of you have any idea why the devs doesn't want us to know how the game's mechanics acutally work? (IE, manual entries are deliberately misleading).

 

Also I really don't get why they chose to reward fast kills. It seems to encourage nothing more than "slumming" for items in lower difficulty settings with over-levelled chars. I just can't find the justification for this mechanic.

[gogoblender 3,072]

Do any of you have any idea why the devs doesn't want us to know how the game's mechanics acutally work? (IE, manual entries are deliberately misleading).

 

Also I really don't get why they chose to reward fast kills. It seems to encourage nothing more than "slumming" for items in lower difficulty settings with over-levelled chars. I just can't find the justification for this mechanic.

 

 

This is their style LIttle Faith. You have played Sacred original..you know this franchise is unlike other games out there. This not a processed game, and is not easy to play or understand.

 

Unfortunately I think their project of giving us great mysteries to solve, comes with a sea of bugs o_O

 

This is also the reason why so many of us are enamored of it. It is complex, and is probably the last game of it's kind left. AS now, respeccing is coming to be understood as being the "new gaming" so ends real puzzles and difficulties of games... enter the realm of quick consumption, and easy on and of switches...

 

Enjoy what it offers, we will never have a game like this ever again.

 

 

gogo

 

p.s. Fast kill rewards, if this is correct, reward competitive game playing. You can choose to play against yourself if you so choose, but this game is great in that it has offered many modes to different styles. If you want to be competitive, there are little rewards being orffered...perhaps this is one. ^^

[Llama8 8]

Do any of you have any idea why the devs doesn't want us to know how the game's mechanics acutally work? (IE, manual entries are deliberately misleading).

A combination of translation errors, stuff changing from the build that the translations were done on & them prefering us to discover it ourselves. They just didn't want to have a site which gave out all of the info on how the game works (well, a site that they made), we asked during the beta & they didn't want to do it (workload notwithstanding).

 

 

Also I really don't get why they chose to reward fast kills. It seems to encourage nothing more than "slumming" for items in lower difficulty settings with over-levelled chars. I just can't find the justification for this mechanic.

I think they were trying to prevent people from using massive Area of Effect to clear areas really quickly & generate a massive amount of items when combined with a lot of MF. S1 never had as much Area of Effect as Sacred 2, the only one that I can think of that would affect an entire screen would be Dagger Stare (possibly), all of the other Area of Effect Combat Arts were much smaller in their area of effect when compared to Sacred 2. In Sacred 2 we have Blazing Tempest, Firey Ember, Icy Evanesence, Charged Grid & Viperish Disease t oname but a few that are capable of wiping an entire screen (or more if you're using the bugged VD) in seconds. If there weren't any form of cap or reduction in effective MF based on how many monsters are dieing in a few seconds everybody would have a few characters that can use those Combat Arts & then they'd all be in sets/uniques/legendaries.

[Rotluchs 82]

"experience level-factor damping" ,

and the impact on final experience gained per monster after each levelup

 

http://forum.sacred-game.com/showthread.ph...3847#post933847

 

for example, until charlvl 100 experience/each monster killed will increase..

after hitting charlvl 101, 'total' experience per monster killed will decrease again with each level up..

 

so, as the discussion in the above thread continues,

one of the german moderators (PowerPyx), luckily managed to eventually poke and ask one of the "ex(p)-developers"

 

if I read this right, the 'level barrier' and noticeable decrease between level 100 and 101 that Max is referring to when posting his oberservations @ topic start,

 

later is referred to as 'LvlDampFac' in the 'final' formula by Ex-Dev "Methedrine"

about in the middle of the chat-log (guess which one of the ex-dev's that is ),

 

and almost at the end of the post as 'damping of the level factor' where he also adds after which level-barriers this happens (101, 126, 151, 176)

(which finally kinda 'explains'/'confirms' what's going on with experience, as also shown by the observations of players like Max and others)

 

Ich habe mal eine kleine Testreihe zur experience-Verteilung mit variierendem Charakterlevel bei den Wächtern gemacht. Für die meisten dürfte es nichts neues sein, dass man ab Level 100 wieder weniger Erfahrung bekommt. Ich wollte dies jedoch mal mit ein paar Zahlen belegen. Die Rahmenbedingungen (Schwierigkeitsgrad: Platin, experience: +40,5%, Mentortrank aktiv, Soloserver) habe ich logischerweise dabei nicht verändert. Die unregelmäßigen Variationen bei Level 101 bzw. 106 resultieren aus dem plötzlichen Anstieg des Gegnerlevels auf Grund des anwachsenden Überlebensbonus, was sich ja nicht vermeiden lässt.

 

Code:

 

Charakterlevel   Gegnerlevel	   XP
  98			 111		128.083
  99			 112		129.226
 100			 113		130.370
 101			 114		127.598
 101			 115		128.707
 102			 116		127.869
 103			 117		127.027
 104			 118		126.183
 105			 119		125.335
 106			 121		125.512
 107			 122		124.642

 

Ich hatte heute das Vergnügen mit einem der EX-Devs mal über die experience Vergabe zu plauschen... Das nachfolgende IRC Gespräch ist dabei rausgekommen.. Wer mathemäßig was drauf hat kann ja dran knobeln

 

[22:25] <@Pyx> es würd ja alleine helfen wenn wir wüsten wie die abhängigkeiten sind

[22:25] <@Pyx> so pi mal daumen *g*

[22:25] <@Methedrine> Team Größe :-P

[22:25] <@Pyx> ^^

[22:25] <@Methedrine> bzw. Anzahl der Spieler im Team die in einer bestimmten Reichweite sind

[22:26] <@Methedrine> dann ein "Team Level"

[22:26] <@Pyx> oh weia

[22:27] <@Methedrine> teamlevel ist quasi von jedem Spieler in Reichweite: (9 + Stufe) ^ 2

[22:27] <@Pyx> das wird zu den basis experience dazu addiert?

[22:30] <@Methedrine> jein, die werden damit verrechnet

[22:30] <@Pyx> hmkay

[22:30] <@Methedrine> erstmal wir dann aus dem TeamLevel der MP Faktor berechnet

[22:31] <@Methedrine> MP Faktor = ( (expTeamBonus balance variable / 1000.f) ^ (team size - 1) ) * ( angepasste Stufe / teamlevel )

[22:31] <@Pyx> O_O

[22:32] <@Methedrine> angepasste stufe ist allerdings auch wieder nur stufe + 9 zum quadrat

[22:32] <@Methedrine> das ist, wie gesagt, erstmal nur der MP Faktor

[22:33] <@Pyx> also dann MP Faktor = ((exoTeamBonus balance variable / 1000.f) ^(team size -1))*((9+Stufe)^2) / teamlevel )

[22:33] <@Methedrine> und der wird mit den basis xp multipliziert

[22:33] <@Pyx> ?

[22:33] <@Methedrine> jo

[22:33] <@Pyx> also dann MP Faktor = ((exoTeamBonus balance variable / 1000.f) ^(team size -1))*((9+Stufe)^2) / teamlevel ) * basis experience

[22:33] <@Pyx> sozusagen

[22:33] <@Methedrine> ja, aber nun mal schauen wie die basis experience zusammen kamen

[22:34] <@Methedrine> uh oh

[22:34] <@Methedrine> Formula: experience = value(CRBONUS_EXPERIENCE) * BonusFac * LvlDiffFac * LvlCapFac * MobFac * LvlDampFac *MultiFac

[22:35] <@Methedrine> also haben wir

[22:35] <@Pyx> @.@

[22:36] <@Methedrine> finale experience = //Formula: experience = value(CRBONUS_EXPERIENCE) * BonusFac * LvlDiffFac * LvlCapFac * MobFac * LvlDampFac *MultiFac * ( (expTeamBonus / 1000.f) ^ (teamSize-1) * ( ((9+stufe) ^ 2) / teamLevel )

[22:36] <@Pyx> I see

[22:36] <+Dark|> Kopfrechnung.

[22:36] <@Methedrine> möchtest du auch noch die Formeln für BonusFac, LvlDiffFac, LvlCapFac, MobFac, LvlDampFac, MultiFac haben? :-P

[22:36] <@Pyx> hrhr

[22:37] <@Pyx> die erklärung zu LvlDampFac und MultiFac würde imho reichen ^^

[22:37] <@Pyx> also ohne formel

[22:37] <@Pyx> sondern nur was das sein soll

[22:37] <@Pyx> das gilt auch für den expteambonus

[22:38] <@Pyx> hinter letzterem versteckt sich sicher aber auch wieder ne formel

[22:38] <@Methedrine> also prinzipiell läuft das so ab

[22:38] <@Methedrine> jede figur hat einen fixen XP Wert

[22:38] * @Pyx lauscht gespannt

[22:38] <@Pyx> check fixe XP für jede figur

[22:38] <@Methedrine> der wird eventuell ein klein wenig mit schwierigkeitsgrad und stufe mitskaliert

[22:39] <@Methedrine> aber egal, auf dem gleichen level und schwierigkeitsgrad ist das ding konstant für alle gegner dieses typs

[22:39] <@Methedrine> dann gibt es bei dir die üblichen experience Boni (equip, mentor trank, sb)

[22:39] <@Pyx> k

[22:40] <@Methedrine> wenn du jetzt das viech tötest, wird geschaut ob für die berechnung eventuell ein team faktor herangezogen werden muss

[22:40] <@Methedrine> der funktioniert im Prinzip so: wenn alle im team nah beieinander sind - sowohl räumlich als auch von der stufe - dann gibt es für einen selbst den besten faktor

[22:40] <@Methedrine> bzw. nicht für einen selbst, aber im endeffekt die maximale ausbeute für alle

[22:41] <@Methedrine> anyway, hinzukommt dann, wenn du zu hoch bist für deinen schwierigkeitsgrad

[22:41] <@Methedrine> also sagen wir mal, stufe 120 in bronze

[22:41] <@Methedrine> dann wird die experience ordentlich reduziert die du bekommen könntest

[22:42] <@Bernd^Tourette> Dagegen ist der paragraph 3b des Deutschen Einkommensteuergesetzes richtig durchschaubar...

[22:43] <@Methedrine> hinzukommt, das du bei mehreren stufen dann ein damping auf den level faktor bekommst

[22:43] <@Methedrine> diese stufen erreichst du bei 101, 126, 151, 176

[22:43] <@Methedrine> und sind auch irgendwelche balance.txt Werte die dafür herangezogen werden

[22:44] <@Methedrine> ist ungefähr so das du ab stufe 101 nur noch 98.5% der maximalen XP bekommst, ab 126 nur noch 98%, 151 = 97,5 usw

[22:44] <@Methedrine> das erklärt warum er bei 100 auf 101 diese Delle hat

[22:44] <@Pyx> hmkay

 

....

 

[22:56] <@Methedrine> ach so, Pyx: dieser diff squeeze den es da gibt, das ist (200 - stufe) / (200 - threshold + 10)

 

....

 

[23:01] <@Methedrine> naja auf niob gibt diesen squeeze nicht mehr

[23:01] <@Methedrine> bzw. wenn der naechsthoehere schwierigkeitsgrad den gleichen einstiegslevel hat gibt es den squeeze auch nicht mehr

 

*seufz*

 

 

Schöne Grüße

Pyx

 

sry if this has been quoted / linked elswhere already, couldn't find it, but guess this is really worth mentioning,

fits the topic and intentions of this thread perfectly, I thought..

Edited April 9, 2010 by Rotluchs

[essjayehm 58]

Do any of you have any idea why the devs doesn't want us to know how the game's mechanics acutally work? (IE, manual entries are deliberately misleading).

 

Also I really don't get why they chose to reward fast kills. It seems to encourage nothing more than "slumming" for items in lower difficulty settings with over-levelled chars. I just can't find the justification for this mechanic.

For fast kills / slumming:

As far as I've experienced.... farming regular mobs/champions/elites that have white circles under them (ie. much lower level than me) did not grant any unique drops. I've tried to develop a method for farming level 15 sets, but the only way to get them to drop is to ensure that the monsters' level is above mine (can only farm level 15 sets with a level 12-15 toon).

 

Just my experience, which is offline, if that matters.

[FrostElfGuard 9]

Do any of you have any idea why the devs doesn't want us to know how the game's mechanics acutally work? (IE, manual entries are deliberately misleading).

 

Also I really don't get why they chose to reward fast kills. It seems to encourage nothing more than "slumming" for items in lower difficulty settings with over-levelled chars. I just can't find the justification for this mechanic.

 

The manual could've been written first... and then the game design changed, and the manual was not updated...

"Hiding" the exact formulas: Hans-Arno said that we were free to divine the game mechanics... from running and observing the game, but not from reverse engineering it.

He felt that it was much more exciting for people to figure out how things worked rather than be given tables and formulae that told the story.

 

 

 

S1 Wolf Companion

 

I was encouraged in the S1 days to figure out the Wolf Companion level for the Vampiress based on Combat Art level and time of day (in the game). Through the powers of the Trade

skill I had a the ability to take a Vampiress from level 1 to level 89 in Wolf Companion by shifting armour around... and I found by testing each 'hour' in the 'day' that (IIRC) midnight to about 6 AM game day time (not real time) gave you higher level summons for the Wolf Companion.

 

So. A lot of the game can be figured out by careful observation.

 

---

 

S1 again, Seraphim Full Fads

 

I asked Hans-Arno about the Seraphim's use of Fadalmar's Fireballs. The Seraphim lacks the Axe Lore skill... but if you socket all 3 different Fadalmar's ring in two sets of axes, and over socket with a higher level requirement you over-rule Fadalmars' Embossed Axe's requirement for Axe Lore. Which then means a Seraphim can equip it (if you used a skill you already had with sufficient level to override the axe lore in the axe). Seraphim have access to the dual wield skill. Thus, legally, you could have a Seraphim use a Fadalmar's Axe set to produce fireballs. *Takes a breath* So. I asked him about this: and he said (words to this effect), "If you can legally do it in the game, even if it was unintended, why wouldn't you do it?"

 

We had sort of considered it to be, well, cheating. At least until he said that when asked.

 

---

 

One last reason for not producing the formulas: they change with each patch. Nothing (I think) would be worse that having a manual that doesn't match up with what the game does.

The Diablo II manual is a great example. Even when I played the game --the manual's published tables had a resemblance to what was going on... but only that.