Battle Mechanics

[darrellp 0]

Is there a decent explanation of the mechanics of the battle algorithm? For instance, I know that strength increases your attack strength by a direct add, but without knowing how attack strength is used during battle, this really doesn't tell me much. I'm sure it's an advantage to have a higher attack strength, but how much and in what way? Does Sacred compare battle strengths between opponents to determine hits? Does it use some other method to determine hits and then attack strength is used to determine damage? Without this sort of information, it's really impossible to know whether you want to put your attribute points into strength or somewhere else. Thanks for any help anybody might have.

[essjayehm 58]

Is there a decent explanation of the mechanics of the battle algorithm? For instance, I know that strength increases your attack strength by a direct add, but without knowing how attack strength is used during battle, this really doesn't tell me much. I'm sure it's an advantage to have a higher attack strength, but how much and in what way? Does Sacred compare battle strengths between opponents to determine hits? Does it use some other method to determine hits and then attack strength is used to determine damage? Without this sort of information, it's really impossible to know whether you want to put your attribute points into strength or somewhere else. Thanks for any help anybody might have.

For the first game, it appears it was quite easy to calculate... Your attack value divided by the sum of your attack value and the enemy defense value.

 

Sorry, Darrelp, I don't think anyone has a concrete formula for how Chance to Hit is fully calculated in Sacred 2. We know there are several factors when you take a swing at an enemy:

 

Your attack value vs. enemies' defense value

enemy evasion

enemy block chance

reflecting attacks

 

Attributes click the link, it will tell you what you need to know for which attributes affect which weapons.

Edited April 8, 2010 by essjayehm

[darrellp 0]

...

Attributes click the link, it will tell you what you need to know for which attributes affect which weapons.

 

Thanks. That was actually the page I was looking at which prompted the question. I do think it's helpful in some ways, but like I said, knowing that strength gets added to attack strength doesn't really tell me too much if I don't know then how attack strength is being used which, in turn, makes it really difficult to assess how much good putting attribute points into strength does me. I really love these sorts of games, but I do think that character building is kind of a hit and miss affair and given the amount of time/effort you have to invest before you really have much of an idea of whether you've "hit" or "missed", it would be nice if you could make some sort of informed decision ahead of time rather than guiessing and then seeing whether you guessed right or wrong during the many hours of play. Not only do you have to guess, in the end it's difficult to impossible to tell what variables were guessed correctly and which weren't unless you spend 30 hours with a Seraphim who invests heavily in Strength and another 30 in one exactly alike who invests in Dexterity. Multiply that by each attribute and you're asking an awful lot to really understand what's good vs. what's bad. What's worse, if you guess wrong, there's no way to recitify the situation later.

 

This is kind of a general gripe with character building games. Most of them have this problem, or at least what I see as a problem. Some of them do let you readjust such things during the course of the game (for a price) but even then, it's very difficult to figure out the best thing to adjust.

 

I'm really not complaining too much - I do love the game and I guess I'll have to go on the collected wisdom of other players regarding how to build characters which seems pretty vast, though I don't really know how well informed. I only mention how well informed because as I mentioned above, to be really well informed seems to me to require either knowing the algorithms in detail or spending thousands and thousands of hours carefully calibrating nearly identical characters one against the other. Nonetheless, I'm not in any way knocking work people have done like the page you reference. Thanks very much for those effort! I know people have put a lot of effort into them and I really do appreciate them!

 

Thanks for the input! I'm sure you're right and there really is no good way of knowing to the level of detail I'd like.

 

Darrell

Edited April 8, 2010 by darrellp

[essjayehm 58]

Thanks for the input! I'm sure you're right and there really is no good way of knowing to the level of detail I'd like.

 

Darrell

 

Yes, many of Sacred's secrets will probably never get unveiled, but we are trying our best!

 

Believe me, when you find some of the equations that are out there, and they don't work in the way you anticipate, it does get very frustrating.

 

Even having a good solid base of the game mechanics from playing and reading wiki/forums... I still don't have a clue where attribute points are "best" spent. So, by default, I almost put every point I get into Vitality. Deepening your Hitpoint pool is never a bad thing (unless you plan on stopping the character in low-levels for a shopper). There is nothing more frustrating in this game than getting hit for more HP than you have. If you play into Niob difficulty then this is more of an eventuality than a "possibility". If I have a character build that has Constitution, then I will split the points between Vitality and Stamina.

The only other attribute I have put points into is Willpower, but only when playing a Temple Guardian or Seraphim.

 

Just my .02, tho.

[Shattered Rift 2]

I'm in the same boat as you, Darrell: I've been reading the different character build guides for a while now, and the overall impression I've been left with is that nobody really knows what they're doing and why (aside from the hardcore players pumping vitality). Personally (having a Level 33 Temple Guardian as my furthest character, and having otherwise just experimented with taking almost every other class to Level 15), I've settled into pumping stamina: every build wants its regen times as low as possible, and once they're as low as possible you can make up for a lack of Strength/Dexterity/Intelligence by chowing down runes. (To give credit where credit is due, I think I read that in a Seraphim guide.) Vitality can be compensated for by the Constitution and Toughness skills (that most hardcore players add on top of pumping vitality). (Alternatively, if you're just playing casually or not planning to go as far as Niob, it sounds it like it might not matter much at all.) Willpower isn't something I recall seeing mentioned often in builds.

 

There is a thread or two around that speculate or have some knowledge of formulas... I was reading one yesterday, I think, but can't recall for the life of me what it was or where it was. (It doesn't help that I'm posting this after an unsuccessful afternoon nap.) I don't think it covered stats, but inside into game mechanics can help a person get a feel for how other things might have been done.

[User0001 1]

Hello darrellp,

may I suggest a different strategy to find out (which is unfortunately based on my PC - it involves saving and restoring your char several times, so I don't know if PS2 and/or xbox can do that as well):

1 - Play a new char of your favorite class , but don't use your stat points yet. Keep at least one low damage weapon.

2 - If you have, say, 12 stat points in your pool, save the game and write down all your secondary stats: attack rating, defense rating, chance to hit, all Combat Art damage ratings and regen times, life total, resists, etc.

3 - Now put all your points into Strength and write down the changes.

4 - Restore (from 2) and put all your stat points into, say, Stamina. Again, write down the changes.

5 - Restore again, and try one more stat. And so on, for all stats.

That should give you an idea what is useful and what isn't. Be warned that some things might still be ambiguous: for example, if STR adds to weapon damage directly, or if it adds to the physical damage multiplier like weapon lore. Retry with at least one less damaging weapon... if the added percentage is the same, it's a multiplier.

Now you can restore again and allocate the stat points to get the best possible mix, or at least a "decent" one.

I hope that helps some, and Welcome to DarkMatters!

 

NamelessBeast Over.

[essjayehm 58]

To do the re-set trick on console, just save game.... distribute points, etc... then use the PS menu to quit game (progress is unsaved). Unsure if Xbox users have such a main menu option or not.

[chattius 2,529]

How to become a demi-god. It is a thread about damage mitigation and how armour affects damage.

 

For defense/attack: 1 dexterity is one base_defense_point. But attack values is not that easy.

 

Normally I would say:

 

If a character uses an energy shield: do willpower

 

Don't do stamina if you play: an elf, a fighter or a hybrid. I don't play console, but I know that regeneration per hit will be working

 

The damage boost to weapon attacks depend on the weapon type. Strength for example will have a bigger effect on two-handed swords than on strength-based polearms.

 

Using a dexterity based weapon and a buff which has x% defense makes dexterity a valid option for ranged dryads.

 

I normaly start with first 50 levels all vitality.

[gogoblender 3,070]

and the overall impression I've been left with is that nobody really knows what they're doing

 

Two really different ways of building beautiful things.

 

One is by observing behavior and then constructing. The other is with theory. Theory has the potential of building things that that are perfect, because we know and understand all of the possible sources and repercussions.

 

Building from observed behavior, on the other hand, is its own kind of goodness. It creates models that work, can be enjoyed and most importantly can be shared with others.

 

The devs here have not released any of their formulaes, they prefer to have us players do the work, and they believe that ultimately the work and sweat we put in builds things that are rare and ultimately the most beautiful.

 

Builds built by players in this game, if they are successful, come about because of many hours og hard work, observation, careful note taking, posting in forums such as this, making friends who we can share observations, and many, many other things.

 

I can understand how wanting theory is something that is desired. It shortcuts the hard process of real experimenting and trying to understand what is happening in the game.. and is something that comes about at much expense and time, especially if a player is an HC player. Having formulas is something that many visiting players have, over the years here at Darkmatters, looked for, yearned for, perhaps even gotten frustrated over because, ultimately, as posted by this game's devs... sharing this game's "secrets" is not what they are trying to share with us or have us enjoy.

 

Here is a realm of uncharted wonders, puzzles, strange mysteries, but most importantly, perhaps, the last game of it's kind in the universe.

 

After this, the road of consumption, easy sharing of spreadsheets, formulas and "casual" gaming will have arrived.

 

Poor Sacred

 

 

gogo

 

p..s. Welcome to DarkMatters Darrel and Shattered

[Furian67 15]

Wow Gogo, you have a wonderful way with words. Very precise on the building from observed behavior. I've built a good 10 differant dryads in the last couple months. Best one making it to 103, I thougfht "this is it" but alas she got one shotted in the dragon caves. Hence I have been using 3 pieces of Eternal Flame that I carry with me for when I get into areas with fire, chest has physical mitigation but three pieces gives you Fire mitigation, now Ancient Bark's weakness is evened out. I learn something new most everyday with this game. Played a good 1000 hours on Xbox before coming to PC and I thought I knew something, I wasn't even close. * months of PC Hardcore and there's still a huge learning pool.

 

Most of the build guides we could almost say are outdated, With Ice and Blood came our savior, Regen per Hit. Most all the guides now need updated to reflect what we would do differant now that we have RpH. I have one build guide that I'm starting to piece together now, a Dryad with Vodoo/Nature aspect. Regen is supported by a blow gun with only the Ranged weapons skill. You would be very surprised how well she can kill with just the Blowgun/Ranged skill, no Tactics or Hunter. By build standards we have now her regen times are absolutely stagering. But RpH is a godsend and allows wonderuos options.

[bigpapa 0]

Wow Gogo, you have a wonderful way with words. Very precise on the building from observed behavior. I've built a good 10 differant dryads in the last couple months. Best one making it to 103, I thougfht "this is it" but alas she got one shotted in the dragon caves. Hence I have been using 3 pieces of Eternal Flame that I carry with me for when I get into areas with fire, chest has physical mitigation but three pieces gives you Fire mitigation, now Ancient Bark's weakness is evened out. I learn something new most everyday with this game. Played a good 1000 hours on Xbox before coming to PC and I thought I knew something, I wasn't even close. * months of PC Hardcore and there's still a huge learning pool.

 

Most of the build guides we could almost say are outdated, With Ice and Blood came our savior, Regen per Hit. Most all the guides now need updated to reflect what we would do differant now that we have RpH. I have one build guide that I'm starting to piece together now, a Dryad with Vodoo/Nature aspect. Regen is supported by a blow gun with only the Ranged weapons skill. You would be very surprised how well she can kill with just the Blowgun/Ranged skill, no Tactics or Hunter. By build standards we have now her regen times are absolutely stagering. But RpH is a godsend and allows wonderuos options.

 

Was there no RpH on PC until Ice and Blood? I've got several RpH items socketed and I'm on 360.

[Furian67 15]

Wow Gogo, you have a wonderful way with words. Very precise on the building from observed behavior. I've built a good 10 differant dryads in the last couple months. Best one making it to 103, I thougfht "this is it" but alas she got one shotted in the dragon caves. Hence I have been using 3 pieces of Eternal Flame that I carry with me for when I get into areas with fire, chest has physical mitigation but three pieces gives you Fire mitigation, now Ancient Bark's weakness is evened out. I learn something new most everyday with this game. Played a good 1000 hours on Xbox before coming to PC and I thought I knew something, I wasn't even close. * months of PC Hardcore and there's still a huge learning pool.

 

Most of the build guides we could almost say are outdated, With Ice and Blood came our savior, Regen per Hit. Most all the guides now need updated to reflect what we would do differant now that we have RpH. I have one build guide that I'm starting to piece together now, a Dryad with Vodoo/Nature aspect. Regen is supported by a blow gun with only the Ranged weapons skill. You would be very surprised how well she can kill with just the Blowgun/Ranged skill, no Tactics or Hunter. By build standards we have now her regen times are absolutely stagering. But RpH is a godsend and allows wonderuos options.

 

Was there no RpH on PC until Ice and Blood? I've got several RpH items socketed and I'm on 360.

 

This is true. On the 360 we always had RpH, 9at the time I was playing I didn't know what it was)Not until Ice and Blood did the PC get Rph. So most of the build are made with Combat Art kept at one rune until much later in game. Now on most of my current build around level 50 to 60 I can start to really pump runes.

[darrellp 0]

and the overall impression I've been left with is that nobody really knows what they're doing

...Building from observed behavior, on the other hand, is its own kind of goodness. It creates models that work, can be enjoyed and most importantly can be shared with others.

 

...I can understand how wanting theory is something that is desired. It shortcuts the hard process of real experimenting and trying to understand what is happening in the game.. and is something that comes about at much expense and time, especially if a player is an HC player. Having formulas is something that many visiting players have, over the years here at Darkmatters, looked for, yearned for, perhaps even gotten frustrated over because, ultimately, as posted by this game's devs... sharing this game's "secrets" is not what they are trying to share with us or have us enjoy.

 

I appreciate your view. Mine is somewhat different. Both views can be shared - the "observation" model isn't special in that way and certainly the theory view works as well or better than the observation model. In fact, the observation model is only a means to try to discover the theory in the first place and only "works" to the extent that it does that properly. Nor do I really see having the theory as a "shortcut" - it just moves you beyond the tedium of wild guessing to the exciting, meaty part part of the game that is informed decision making. There's just as much work involved - it's just profitable work that you know will advance your character rather than what, to me, is tedious work wandering around in the dark wondering what effects to attribute to what causes.

 

Anyway, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree which is best and that's alright. There's room in the world for both views.

[Schot 407]

Is there a decent explanation of the mechanics of the battle algorithm? For instance, I know that strength increases your attack strength by a direct add, but without knowing how attack strength is used during battle, this really doesn't tell me much. I'm sure it's an advantage to have a higher attack strength, but how much and in what way? Does Sacred compare battle strengths between opponents to determine hits? Does it use some other method to determine hits and then attack strength is used to determine damage? Without this sort of information, it's really impossible to know whether you want to put your attribute points into strength or somewhere else. Thanks for any help anybody might have.

 

 

I think what isn't being said here is that for a lot of us we don't find our attributes of greatest consequence. For myself at least, choosing where to spend my attribute points is more or less an after thought. What IS of greatest consequence is equipment and skills. More then anything, understanding Item Mods will help you the most to create a competitive build. Attributes can be a bit misleading as to their importance. They are indeed the base for which many item modifiers will improve upon which can make them seem as though they are the most important thing to understand but on a level to level basis they are inconsequential in comparison to choosing the right skill, spending skill points, or forging item modifiers via jewelry. Plus, Attributes increase automatically upon each level.

 

I think if you were to adjust your focus from attributes to other more pressing aspects of a build that you'll gain a much better understanding and have a heck of a lot more fun.

 

In answer to what you are asking in your first post; yes. Sacred does compare your Attack Value against your opponents Defense Value however... Those are just the base factors. There are other sub-factors if you will that contribute to your final "Chance to Hit" the opponent. The sub-factor, or item modifier, that has been seen to provide the greatest improvement to your Chance to Hit an opponent is called Opponent's chance to evade. Forging Jewelry with that Item Modifier will improve your Chance to Hit much better than spending points in Strength. As for damage it differs depending on the type of damage being used but since you're asking about Strength I'm assuming you're playing a melee build that is using something like a sword/axe/hammer. Strength will increase your melee weapon's damage but again you'll find the greatest results through Item Modifiers though not just from Jewelry. Skills play a major role in melee damage as well. The most notable skill for improving melee damage, or ranged even, is the skill Tactics Lore. The most notable Item Modifier for improving melee damage, again or ranged, are Base Damage rings. These are basic building blocks to work with though it does get much more complex. Especially with regards to damage and most of all with regards to spell damage.

[gogoblender 3,070]

Good post Schot. I do agree with you upon the importance of shifting our attention and time from Attributes to other lines of consideration. Sacred character building for me has always been, in order of importance:

 

• Equipment. The right equipment can completely skew your character and make a warrior act like a Caster^^
  
• Skill Choice: As well, this can break a character out of the stereotype and bring great, unique color to a boring build.
  
• Attributes: Last. The other two just seem to hugely overpower what my needs are for my beloved damage dealing builds. I can just about increase in multiples of magnitude my damage with careful management of my equipment and skill points allocations.
  

And best tool in the game IMO regarding managing our CTH (Chance to Hit) for mellee/ranged builds is:

 

Chance to Hit Calculator

 

As well, for the OP if you are looking another tool that can help with managing regen times, Amble has just created this for SacredWiki:

 

Sacred Sim: Combat Art Regen Calculator by Amble

 

The regen calculator is the first and only real out of game tool ever produced for the Sacred Franchise. Props to Amble for being the first person in history to crack the code and tidy up the math for the fans.

 

 

 

 

gogo

[Shattered Rift 2]

and the overall impression I've been left with is that nobody really knows what they're doing

Two really different ways of building beautiful things.

 

One is by observing behavior and then constructing. The other is with theory. Theory has the potential of building things that that are perfect, because we know and understand all of the possible sources and repercussions.

 

Building from observed behavior, on the other hand, is its own kind of goodness. It creates models that work, can be enjoyed and most importantly can be shared with others.

 

The devs here have not released any of their formulaes, they prefer to have us players do the work, and they believe that ultimately the work and sweat we put in builds things that are rare and ultimately the most beautiful.

 

Builds built by players in this game, if they are successful, come about because of many hours og hard work, observation, careful note taking, posting in forums such as this, making friends who we can share observations, and many, many other things.

In case I wasn't clear, I was only referring to attributes: the general builds (skills/Combat Arts/whatever else I'm forgetting) seem to have become very solid.

 

I understand that we're running off of observation (as much as my analytical mind prefers hard numbers and facts), but while hanging around here and reading the different guides it doesn't feel like there's a general observation (outside of vitality's application to hardcore play). I'd feel a lot more comfortable if people said something like, "Oh, you should always focus in one stat," or, "You should split evenly between two stats," or if everyone just said to go pure Vitality, or whatever. Such observations wouldn't necessarily be the best path to take (I can think of a few cases in other games where the "general observation" was later proven to be completely inaccurate), but as far as attributes go, it really feels like the individual player is on their own to figure out what works for them (whereas we have all the guides for the skill/Combat Art builds).

 

 

Re: Regen per Hit: I'd been under the impression that the 360/PS3 versions were direct, unpatched ports of the original. I'm tempted to inquire about this.

 

 

I think what isn't being said here is that for a lot of us we don't find our attributes of greatest consequence. For myself at least, choosing where to spend my attribute points is more or less an after thought. What IS of greatest consequence is equipment and skills.

 

...

 

In answer to what you are asking in your first post; yes. Sacred does compare your Attack Value against your opponents Defense Value however... Those are just the base factors. There are other sub-factors if you will that contribute to your final "Chance to Hit" the opponent. The sub-factor, or item modifier, that has been seen to provide the greatest improvement to your Chance to Hit an opponent is called Opponent's chance to evade. Forging Jewelry with that Item Modifier will improve your Chance to Hit much better than spending points in Strength.

This is extremely helpful, and more-or-less addresses the attribute question I've been wondering for the past week or two.

 

Do we know if chance-to-hit also affects spells? I'm pretty sure off-hand that spells can miss, but I could easily be misremembering.

 

 

And best tool in the game IMO regarding managing our CTH (Chance to Hit) for mellee/ranged builds is:

 

Chance to Hit Calculator

 

As well, for the OP if you are looking another tool that can help with managing regen times, Amble has just created this for SacredWiki:

 

Sacred Sim : Combat Art Regen Calculator by Amble

 

The regen calculator is the first and only real out of game tool ever produced for the Sacred Franchise. Props to Amble for being the first person in history to crack the code and tidy up the math for the fans.

Were those supposed to be two different threads? (They both have the same link, and I'm pretty sure I skimmed that thread a few days ago without seeing anything related to regen.) Also, is there supposed to be an actual calculator link in the Chance to Hit Calculator, or is this just a thread discussing the importance of Chance to Hit?

[gogoblender 3,070]

lol!

 

I just caught that.

 

Link fixed try again

 

 

gogo

 

p.s. for Spells, no need to figure out Chance to Hit. However, there is spell intensity you may want to consider, as this will compare the strength of your casting versus an enemy's resistance as this may result in a poorer level of spell being cast, with less effect/damage. For a Shadow Warrior casting Bound for example... he would not have to manage a CTH for the spell...but because it is a "spell" and his intelligence is so low as a natural attribute (Which results in a naturally low spell intensity)... he way want to consider investing in rings that socket the spell intensity mod to make up for his naturally low Intelligence which helps govern spell intensity

 

So... for a Shadow Warrior the choice to modify Intelligence will make a difference, while for a natural spell caster like the High Elf it may only make some difference because of her naturally very high Intelligence atribute. What may make better gains overall for HE the build would be if you invested in a weakness for your build that you are seeing as she gets along in levels... like health points via vitality ^^

[bigpapa 0]

Re: Regen per Hit: I'd been under the impression that the 360/PS3 versions were direct, unpatched ports of the original. I'm tempted to inquire about this.

 

I had thought the same, which is why I was confused when earlier in the post it was mentioned that PC didn't get RpH until Ice and Blood. I'm guessing they couldn't figure out how to get the smith skill working so they us RpH as a consolation prize.

 

I started seeing .2s about level 20 with Barg of 40, and I'm seeing .3s at 32 with 90 Barg. I love it because the animation for Amplifying Discharge is longer than the regen time.

[Shattered Rift 2]

Regen time is a linear function (complicated by a bunch of variables). Interesting to know. (I don't think that actually helps me personally at this point... unless stat growth is linear as well.)

 

p.s. for Spells, no need to figure out Chance to Hit. However, there is spell intensity you may want to consider, as this will compare the strength of your casting versus an enemy's resistance as this may result in a poorer level of spell being cast, with less effect/damage. For a Shadow Warrior casting Bound for example... he would not have to manage a CTH for the spell...but because it is a "spell" and his intelligence is so low as a natural attribute (Which results in a naturally low spell intensity)... he way want to consider investing in rings that socket the spell intensity mod to make up for his naturally low Intelligence which helps govern spell intensity

 

So... for a Shadow Warrior the choice to modify Intelligence will make a difference, while for a natural spell caster like the High Elf it may only make some difference because of her naturally very high Intelligence atribute. What may make better gains overall for HE the build would be if you invested in a weakness for your build that you are seeing as she gets along in levels... like health points via vitality ^^

Right, intensity causes a high (full?) damage and a low (half?) damage? Using Archimedes Beam last night, I thought I was seeing some of its pulses miss now and then (guess I'm just remembering wrong), so I wanted to ask.

[darrellp 0]

I think what isn't being said here is that for a lot of us we don't find our attributes of greatest consequence. For myself at least, choosing where to spend my attribute points is more or less an after thought. What IS of greatest consequence is equipment and skills.

I appreciate that and I am quickly coming to a similar conclusion. Don't get me wrong - I love the game and there is enough that is known to make it really interesting to make those choices. In particular, I have a pretty good idea of what the choices regarding the various combat arts and skills will do for me since the they are spelled out fairly well and I think you're absolutely correct - those are the most important decisions to make. Part of what makes the game fun for me is that I'm not making those important decisions in a vacuum.

 

So yes, I can live without the battle details and I love the game anyway. For my tastes, it would be a bit more interesting if I had a little more information so I felt like I was doing something other than blindly guessing when choosing the attributes. In a lot of ways, since I don't know what the attributes do, it feels like they might as well be asking me to invest in attributes A, B, C or D without telling me what those letters stand for. Even if it doesn't make that much difference which of A, B, C or D I choose, I'd still rather have some idea of what differentiates them - otherwise, I might as well stop using my brain and flip a coin. For me, using my brain is a lot more fun than flipping coins .

 

Anyway, I appreciate all the input and understand that other people out there may have different views/tastes than mine so here's to all of us enjoying the game in whatever way we can!

 

Darrell

[gogoblender 3,070]

For me, using my brain is a lot more fun than flipping coins .

 

heh, get used to doing a lot of both. With the many many umpteen variables in the game, there is really no sure shot way of producing in advance an absolutely perfect build.

 

Chaos, stacked-random, critical hits from monsters, surprise-extra numbers of players in a server which results in HUGELY powerful resistances, strengths and extra healthpoints for monsters ...lol, you'd have to plug in 25 variables into 15 calculators to perhaps manage the results of just one battle.

 

The game can seem overwhelming at first but some hours in the battle field give you good 'feels' of what will let you live, and what will get you killed.

 

Brain is good, but that coin in your pocket will never really go away with this game^^

 

Working with both gives great results.

 

 

gogo

[locolagarto 15]

I am trying to wrap my head around these two perspectives.

 

1. the observation method. (Reaching the end of the game through experimentation and adaptation)

Vs.

2. The engineered approach. (Hard numbers and formulas and solved problems, implemented into an end result.)

 

And while I can understand the technician/engineer that works in a mathematical environment. After all Sacred was built this way. And its only natural for the clock maker to want to take a new clock apart and study its guts. Dissect it, map it, formulate it. But that was never the intention of the Devs, or they would have left us the keys to the vault. The intent I believe was the exploration and adaptation, the devs wanted us to try and beat this game by way of ingenuity, not engineering. Certainly there are some very bright engineers out there that have slowly opened a few intriguing areas of this game.

 

But honestly this game is unbeatable. Certainly level 200 is achievable, Niob difficulty in Camp is finish-able. But the game itself is unbeatable, and that is what keeps us exploring and experimenting. We keep looking to discover that tiny morsel of info we didn't have yesterday.

 

Having all the formulas would honestly not make the game interesting after it had finally been cracked. Certainly it would be a ton of fun being able to put together the ultimate niob beating Character optimized for my play-style and tuned to the maximum. but once I got there, I would be left empty and looking for another game. And this is what drives me to play sacred. I felt like I beat Fallout 3, Fable 2, and I figured out how to build the ultimate race car in Forza 1,2. The perfect killing machine in Chromehounds, the list goes on. With Sacred I can build a character 10 different ways and still not "beat" the game. That is what makes this game beautiful.

 

So I encourage the engineers to continue creating insight and solving formulas, it's knowledge earned by a ton of hard work. But know this, after all those formulas are discovered. there is a dice roll built into this game that makes all bets off. the "Chance"mechanic makes all the other mechanics. well.... unsolvable. Meanwhile I and many others will continue to enjoy the experimenting and discovery that comes from lurking in the dark with our eyes closed and arms stretched out. Waiting to run into our evil counterparts coming the other way!

 

Enjoy

 

Loco

[chattius 2,529]

I doubt that a computer program will ever be able to calculate a best character even if all the formula's are known.

 

There are times when formulas can explain something you hadn't searched for: I tried to understand how armour reduces damage. I got a rough formula with till too many variables. But the formula showed that having no armour the damage on you can be pushed by more than 300% in niob. Without the formula I would have thought if you have no armour, that you receive all the damage. And the big junks of damage and one hit kills on me were due to extreme critical hits.

But in fact you receive more damage than the enemy is actually dealing if you have no armour. Watch the function graph close close to 0 armour. So now I know that I should socket at least one artamark and to switch to correct relicts when entering a new area with different main damage type. I didn't end up with a formula which shows the exact solution if you enter the the monster level, your level, armour, weapon, difficulty, survival bonus, .....

I was only able to do a function for certain enemies, at fixed level, difficulty and damage. But the damage boosting was something which I didn't exspected and I would have still flamed Murphy, bad luck , and extreme criticals. So what I remembered from a weekend full of maths: don't run around with no armour in niob. So simble, so short and so true.

 

When I look at my characters they are mainly changed in just one or 2 areas from the last character. A new character is build on my last one and I keep solutions which worked. So even the characters look quite different, they normally share a lot. I can now often say that a character is playable or not by just looking at the skills. Something I couldn't do a year back. And when people ask me why I think the character is playable I would have to explain it for hours. But it is just a few seconds for the belly feeling to know it.

[Shattered Rift 2]

And while I can understand the technician/engineer that works in a mathematical environment. After all Sacred was built this way. And its only natural for the clock maker to want to take a new clock apart and study its guts. Dissect it, map it, formulate it. But that was never the intention of the Devs, or they would have left us the keys to the vault. The intent I believe was the exploration and adaptation, the devs wanted us to try and beat this game by way of ingenuity, not engineering. Certainly there are some very bright engineers out there that have slowly opened a few intriguing areas of this game.

 

...

 

Having all the formulas would honestly not make the game interesting after it had finally been cracked. Certainly it would be a ton of fun being able to put together the ultimate niob beating Character optimized for my play-style and tuned to the maximum. but once I got there, I would be left empty and looking for another game. And this is what drives me to play sacred.

Very few games openly reveal the "keys to the vault." Though in this case (or at least at this forum), the intentions of the developers is much better known than for other games.

 

Maybe it's that I've only clocked 60+ hours and my highest level/farthest toon is a Level 36 (37?) Temple Guardian in the Dragon realm in Silver, but I devise fun from playing as different characters. I'd like to see the best Lost Fusion Temple Guardian, the best Devout Guardian Temple Guardian, the best Source Warden Temple Guardian, and the best hybrid/utility (what's the difference between these terms?) Temple Guardian. And the same for the other five characters.

 

I doubt that a computer program will ever be able to calculate a best character even if all the formula's are known.

Developing a program to figure this out would be difficult, but having a human figure it out (with the knowledge of the various formulae) would be relatively easy. It just depends on if you value damage-per-second, area of effect, speed-running, or some other criteria when considering the "best" character.

[essjayehm 58]

Maybe it's that I've only clocked 60+ hours and my highest level/farthest toon is a Level 36 (37?) Temple Guardian in the Dragon realm in Silver, but I devise fun from playing as different characters. I'd like to see the best Lost Fusion Temple Guardian, the best Devout Guardian Temple Guardian, the best Source Warden Temple Guardian, and the best hybrid/utility (what's the difference between these terms?) Temple Guardian. And the same for the other five characters.

 

Hybrid toons use both magic and melee combat.

 

Utility toons have "General Skills" like Bargaining, Blacksmith, etc so that they can assist other toons that don't have these skills.

 

There is a third commonly-used term: Self-reliant is kinda a utility toon but they need those skills to get themselves thru the game (read: NIOB)

 

IMO, the "best" toon is so player-specific (not to mention differences between console and PC) that there will never be an agreed-upon build that is the best.