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On 11/13/2019 at 9:18 AM, Isaakk said:

Hello all, I'm new to this forum, downloaded CM patch and enhanced edition and is working nicely, but just noticed that Sublime guardian its too overpowered, I'm with a newly created character (level 15) and she twoshoot almost everything, it's very fast and have low cooldown, any thoughts why its like this?

I was thinking about this with the latest release, and I have identified and solved the issue with her being so overpowered in the latest 2.3 release (if you're still out there).

The cause was that I had assigned the Guardian the Seraphim's own combat arts, and those translated to the Guardian with very high damage boosts, causing 10+ times the damage of her basic attacks.  To solve this I made special "Sublime Guardian-only" versions of the Seraphim's combat arts, with custom values designed to give about 2-3 times the damage of her basic attacks.

I also reduced her base speed by half, though it will ultimately scale better as the Guardian reaches high levels.

Anyway, I tested it a good bit and feel pretty secure that's no longer overpowered.  :)

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1 hour ago, dimitrius154 said:

There's a function, that determines whether or not a token is affected by lore skills. I think, they've forgotten to include the token in question. So, it's a bug.

Is there a master list of tokens that are affected by lore skills that you could provide to us?  I think it would be very useful for Wiki / modding / general understanding.

 

1 hour ago, jwiz said:

I wonder if it will fail on the new Inquisitor's skill 'Harbinger of Death' skill with IN_underworld_lore too?

Very good observation. I shall want to change her silver mod to use  'et_minion_armor_all' in order to take advantage of the scaling effect from lore skill.

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2 hours ago, jwiz said:

Yep, seems to be that way as I was skilling Astral Focus + Lore on this test char too.

I wasn't aware that Roderick didn't skill Astral Lore on his char.

So it is a 'mere' oversight that the devs forgot to boost 'et_summon_armor' by Astral Lore.

 

P.S.:

I wonder if it will fail on the new Inquisitor's skill 'Harbinger of Death' skill with IN_underworld_lore too?

 

 

And no, it does not work with the Battle Daemon skill as well, see below.

Level 1 - Char 5 'et_summon_armor 75,55,4,72'

sacred2_L1_char5_summon_armor_75_55_6_72.jpg.25a59840ad9a170ce045326d7c7caaf8.jpg

 

Level 1 - Char 5 'et_minion_armor_all 75,55,4,72'

sacred2_L1_char5_minion_armor_all_75_55_6_72.jpg.e8f8a6512a54c2ff97ced7248bd3d029.jpg

 

Just the same as with Nether Allegiance, so it should be repalced too.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Flix said:

Is there a master list of tokens that are affected by lore skills that you could provide to us?

et_invisible
et_minion_armor_all
et_life_leech
et_energy_leech_whit
et_life_buff
et_life_regen
et_soul_explosion
et_summon_towershield(I think, that's where the bug lies, as the next index is et_summon_armor)
et_dotdamage_fire
et_dotdamage_poison
et_life_heal_hp
et_spelldam_TC_fir
et_spelldam_UD_mag
et_banish_spells
et_base_armor_fir
et_base_armor_ice
et_base_armor_phy
et_base_armor_poi
et_shieldblock
et_itemdam_phy
et_item_chance_surehit
et_shield_regen
et_chance_knockdown

 

As you can see, lore skills do not only affect offensive, but defensive properties as well. Also spell subentries with an index >= 23 are automatically unaffected.

The selection itself is not very logical(as in incomplete). The token index comparison table is static, but can be extended by 100% through function modification(compare bytes, instead of dwords) + 2(there're two duplicate indices present).

Edited by dimitrius154
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13 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

There's a function, that determines whether or not a token is affected by lore skills. I think, they've forgotten to include the token in question. So, it's a bug.

I've been thinking about that and maybe the skill 'et_summon_armor' is working just as intended, as it was never meant to scale with AP lore.

Think about it, why would the devs create 2 different skills with the same mechanics, just for one skill having a slightly lowered base value?

That doesn't seem plausible to me.

It could well be that this was intended to be used by player who would spec into AP focus only for the buff, but never want to make use of the other AP skills, I.e. do not want to spec into AP lore, just as Roderick seems to be playing it.

 

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45 minutes ago, jwiz said:

maybe the skill 'et_summon_armor' is working just as intended, as it was never meant to scale with AP lore.

The presence of "et_summon_towershield", which is next to "et_summon_armor" index-wise, and the fact, that the "et_summon_towershield" can't be influnced by a numeric multiplier - it's a shield replacer token, make me think otherwise. The dev in charge had simply mistyped the index.

49 minutes ago, jwiz said:

why would the devs create 2 different skills with the same mechanics

They've made a few weird decisions during development, as well as quite a few blunders. Programming, while drinking beer, seems to be more error-prone, than programming, while drinking limonade-vodka cocktails. 

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6 minutes ago, dimitrius154 said:

They've made a few weird decisions during development, as well as quite a few blunders. Programming, while drinking beer, seems to be more error-prone, than programming, while drinking limonade-vodka cocktails. 

I mainly drink tea, but then I'm not a coder.  :;

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2 hours ago, Charon117 said:

I would like people to look into the following questions again

  • What does -DoT% ACTUALLY affect ?
  • What does -DME% ACTUALLY affect ?
  • What does the Spell Resistance Mastery ACTUALLY do ?

In terms of the scripted names, this question could be rephrased as :

What does the bonus type = "BONUS_DOTDAMPING", affect?

What does the bonus type = "BONUS_REDUCE_DEBUFFS", affect?

What does adv_skill_name = "skill_spellresist_mastery", actually do?  (Interestingly the dev comments for this one say:  "--reduce duration of control spells, reduce spell damage; reflect chance").

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8 hours ago, jwiz said:

Think about it, why would the devs create 2 different skills with the same mechanics,

That makes sense, but there are actually several examples of different spell tokens that have identical effects in spells.txt.

As to this specific example, I honestly believe at some point "et_summon_armor" was meant to do something different than "et_minion_armor", perhaps actually summoning new armor pieces, like the swords/shields modifications.

So I have to agree with Dmitriy here. I believe it's a bug; it looks like they accidentally added the towershield token instead.

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3 hours ago, Flix said:

  (Interestingly the dev comments for this one say:  "--reduce duration of control spells, reduce spell damage; reflect chance").

I don't see this skill in the reflection calculation. The term 'control spells' is somewhat vague, maybe creatures with that skill mastery are less susceptible to hero mind control spells.

Therefore, I don't believe it to be doing anything, not described in the wiki.

3 hours ago, Flix said:

What does the bonus type = "BONUS_DOTDAMPING", affect?

Damage_over_time from spells and secondary effects.

3 hours ago, Flix said:

What does the bonus type = "BONUS_REDUCE_DEBUFFS", affect?

Debuff duration. Debuffs are states reducing speeds, armor, attack, defence, CA regeneration. It seems, root effect is also considered to be a debuff.

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1 hour ago, dimitrius154 said:

I don't see this skill in the reflection calculation. The term 'control spells' is somewhat vague, maybe creatures with that skill mastery are less susceptible to hero mind control spells.

Therefore, I don't believe it to be doing anything, not described in the wiki.

So Spell Resistance Mastery doesnt do anything ?

1 hour ago, dimitrius154 said:

Damage_over_time from spells and secondary effects.

Can you confirm that this includes secondary effects ?

Because -DME% is also supposed to affect this. Sounds like bogus when 2 mods affect the same condition.

Or rather, if you have 50% -Dot%, and then 50% -DME% on burn, what does it do ?

1 hour ago, dimitrius154 said:

Debuff duration. Debuffs are states reducing speeds, armor, attack, defence, CA regeneration. It seems, root effect is also considered to be a debuff.

It does not include secondary effects ?

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14 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

Can you confirm that this includes secondary effects ?

Whether spell, or a secondary effect, the DoT is affected, as the calculation appears to be unified.

14 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

Because -DME% is also supposed to affect this. Sounds like bogus when 2 mods affect the same condition.

Or rather, if you have 50% -Dot%, and then 50% -DME% on burn, what does it do ?

Looks like the same mod to me. The confusion comes from the description strings. The formula is no supposed to be linear, but rather an inverted hyperbole + 90 deg. One never reaches 100%. 

17 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

It does not include secondary effects ?

Secondary effects induce either DoT, or debuffs. 

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Alright so let me see if I got it straight:

Detrimental Magic Effects -X% only decreases DURATION of any debuff, excluding DOT-causing secondary effects (Burn, Poison, Open Wounds).

Damage Over Time -X% acts like a damping effect, decreasing DAMAGE AND DURATION of any DOT, whether it procs from spells or secondary effect.

Spell Resistance Mastery provides ONLY Detrimental Magic Effects -X%

Sound right?   

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Guys, guys, focus, we already had this discussion.

 

1 hour ago, dimitrius154 said:

Looks like the same mod to me. The confusion comes from the description strings. The formula is no supposed to be linear, but rather an inverted hyperbole + 90 deg. One never reaches 100%. 

Wrong, in the wiki and by empirical evidence.

>"DoT -X%" modifiers are cumulative, which means that values from different sources are simply added to each other (1+1=2) and can reach 100%, making a character effectively immune to a particular damage type DoT.

Immunity can be achieved with -DoT%. 

I dont know anything about -DME%, but if -DoT% ALSO reduces secondary effects than you wont get the benefit of both.

Here is an example:

BURN: 200 damage per second, 5 second duration. 50% -DoT% would then mean that 2 and a half pulse are getting deleted, which means 200 + 200 + 100 damage remains. Now if you have an additional 50% -DME% after half of the burn duration it gets canceled, but that doesnt matter, because the second half of the BURN duration doesnt contain any damage anymore anyway.

Did you mean "One wasnt supposed to reach 100%" ?

 

Or wait, I think I start to get it now. "Secondary Effects" is supposed to be the sum of DoT and debuffs. So for instance BURN is not a debuff, but DoT, with the additional restriction that no more than 1 BURN can be active at a time. ? ? ? (love you autobot) In that instance -DME% would NOT reduce BURN duration, only -DoT% would. Is that what you are saying ?

And all other non-damage things are classified as debuffs. ? ? (love you autobot)

 

59 minutes ago, dimitrius154 said:

It reduces Detrimental Effect and DoT duration. That's something.

Does it stack with regular item based -DoT% and -DME% ?

Edited by Charon117
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12 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

Wrong, in the wiki and by empirical evidence.

I hear you, but I trust a report from the actual game code (provided it's interpreted correctly), over the Wiki, and (in many cases) observations.

Remember your lengthy analyses of how RpH % was working on spells, based on your own observations and the Wiki page (that I wrote), both of which were wrong.

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48 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

So for instance BURN is not a debuff, but DoT, with the additional restriction that no more than 1 BURN can be active at a time. ?

Correct.

48 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

In that instance -DME% would NOT reduce BURN duration, only -DoT% would. Is that what you are saying ?

Correct. - Damage over Time % is vague, that is, one would think it only decreases damage per tick, while it decreases duration as well.

48 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

And all other non-damage things are classified as debuffs. ?

Not all. Stun effect is exempt - nether DoT, nor a debuff.

48 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

"One wasnt supposed to reach 100%" ?

We all know how Damage Mitigation had been mishandled.

Edited by dimitrius154
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I guess my last question would be, does Detrimental Magic Effects -X% do anything except decrease duration?  The description texts often use phrases like: "decreases the impact and duration" or "reduces the duration and intensity of incoming effects."

But would it actually, for example, decrease the intensity of a slowing or weakening effect, or reduce the amount of damage per tick from Burn or Poison?

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12 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

No all. Stun effect is exempt - nether DoT, nor a debuff.

Yes, yes, I know about stun.  And that there also a are allegedly some other things which are neither DoT, nor debuffs, just like stun.

 

12 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

Correct. - Damage over Time % is vague, that is, one would think it only decreases damage per tick, while it decreases duration as well.

Technically you are incorrect here. -Dot% decreases damage starting from the back.  50% -Dot% reduces 200 - 200 - 200 - 200 - 200 to 200 - 200 -100, not 100 - 100 - 100 - 100 - 100.

It would be more correct to say that it only decreases duration, percentage wise calculated.

Wait no, thats bullFECAL MATTER!,(I love you autobot) I just checked that ingame. -DoT% reduces pulse damage AND pulse duration. What madness this is. How the hell do you calculate this ? Total Base Damage * (1 - -DoT%)^(2) = total damage. 50% -DoT% would reduce the total damage by 75% This means that spell resistance mastery reduces total damage by 87.75% ? Or does spell resistance mastery only decrease duration ? ? ?

Uff anyway, this makes -DoT% a pretty important asset, as even a 20% -DoT% means a 36% total damage reduction. It also means that DoT needs to be recalculated for the people who didnt understand how DoT works.

Here we have a direct contradiction:

12 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

In that instance -DME% would NOT reduce BURN duration, only -DoT% would. Is that what you are saying ?

>Correct. - Damage over Time % is vague, that is, one would think it only decreases damage per tick, while it decreases duration as well.

>DoT, caused by Secondary Damage effects, can also be reduced by Detrimental magic effects-x% modifier,
http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Damage_over_Time

Only one can be true, sort out which one.

 

Anyway, the only question I still have is

12 hours ago, Charon117 said:

Does it (Spell Resistance Mastery) stack with regular item based -DoT% and -DME% ?

 

So I think it would be nice if the nice people of the wiki update all relevant pages with

  • -DME% does not reduce DoT of Secondary effects. (if dimitrius is correct) This knocks off BURN, POISON and OPEN WOUNDS DoT.
  • DoT in the files get calculated as total damage, spread over the duration of DurationDot in the balance.txt.
  • I think its more clear for the reader if he understands that there are basically 3 types, DoT(including BURN, POISON and OPEN WOUNDS), debuffs (including FREEZE and WEAKEN), and miscancellous. DoT gets affected by -DoT% (twice, total damage and duration), debuffs get shortened by -DME%, and miscancellous get affected by neither.

I also found DurationPulse in the balance.txt, which I am pretty sure is unrelated to this topic.

:)

 

12 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

We all know how Damage Mitigation had been mishandled.

I dont. But thats for another day :).

 

Cheers :)

Edited by Charon117
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2 hours ago, Flix said:

But would it actually, for example, decrease the intensity of a slowing or weakening effect, or reduce the amount of damage per tick from Burn or Poison?

As far as I see, no ,it won't. Detrimental Magic Effects -X% affects duration, not value. "Detrimental Magic Effects" should be read as "Debuffs". Burn and Poison are not Debuffs, but DoT. 

Edited by dimitrius154
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2 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

As far as I see, no ,it won't. Detrimental Magic Effects -X% affects duration, not value. "Detrimental Magic Effects" should be read as "Debuffs". Burn and Poison are not Debuffs, but DoT. 

Interesting. So it would reduce the duration of Freeze and Weaken, but not Open Wounds, Poison, or Burn.  I suppose that's fair, since the latter three would be reduced by DOT -X%, while the former two would not.  

I think the tooltip text should read: "Debuff Duration -X%" then, for clarity.

So really, the two mods don't overlap then.  Whew, there's a lot of Wiki-editing ahead. Particularly Spell Resistance needs to have the bit about DOT -X% removed.

@dimitrius154 There's not a nice neat table somewhere of what modifiers count as true "Debuffs" for purposes of that modifier, is there?  I am wondering specifically about some oddities like Deep Wounds, Deadly Wounds, and Serious Open Wounds. The latter mixes two effects, part DOT, part debuff.

3 hours ago, Charon117 said:

We all know how Damage Mitigation had been mishandled.

I dont. But thats for another day .

Like DOT -X%, Damage Mitigation just stacks right on up to 100%, with no diminishing returns.  If I had the power, my suggestion would be to make both of these modifiers subject to diminishing returns.  The current solution is to make it hard to stack to 100% through rarity and low values.

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5 hours ago, Flix said:

There's not a nice neat table somewhere of what modifiers count as true "Debuffs" for purposes of that modifier, is there?

No. Technically, boni marked as type = "BONUS_DEBUFF" in blueprint .txt and having one of the following spez: 

DEBUFF_ATTACKSPEED, DEBUFF_ARMOR, DEBUFF_ATTACKVALUE, DEBUFF_DEFENSEVALUE, DEBUFF_SNARE, DEBUFF_STRANGLE, DEBUFF_NOFLEE, DEBUFF_ATTACKWALKSPEED, DEBUFF_STATS, DEBUFF_WALKSPEED, DEBUFF_CA_REGEN

are debuffs.

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I've been experimenting with the Inquisitor (level. 28) and the Battle Daemon (level.18) for a while now because I always like the Daemon in Sacred Underworld, but it seems to me that she's not up to the task in S2EE.


Firstly, she has a severe skin problem and looks downright fugly and in urgent need of a skin retexture.

814966838_sacred2battle_daemon.thumb.jpg.528780e0effdd5c8bd8fb3d6f74645f1.jpg

 

Secondly, she is tardy and unaggressive. Half the time she just stands in some corner in defensive stance and does literally nothing.

While I can get her movement speed up, I wonder if it is possible to alter her combat behaviour.

Would exchanging 'et_summon_soldier' with 'et_summon_officer'  imbue her with more readiness to attack or would it be just the same but with more hitpoints?

 

Thirdly, is it intended that her poison form gets half the value than her fire form, or am I reading the entires wrong?

        entry8 = {"et_summon_soldier", 0, 100, 5, 8 },
        entry9 = {"et_summon_soldier", 0, 200, 6, 8 },

 

Edited by jwiz
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