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Assassin Dragon Flight Bug


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Hi, I was just trying out the Dragon Flight silver mod for area damage to see how small the area would be. To my surprise I couldn't get it to hit more than one enemy at all, ever. I even tried teleporting next to an enemy (Ctrl+Click) but that didn't hit anything. So now I'M wondering if there's a trick to it? Does it start with a really tiny area (smaller than the 0.8m telekinesis) or does it only apply from CaLvl 2+ or something else pseudo buggedy?

And just to clarify: No, I'm not mounted and when I target an enemy it hits it just won't ever splash, I tried dozens of times with small really close together enemies like Kobold + goblin types.

Ending on a positive note: I thoroughly enjoyed playing around with this mod for the past few days and am sure gonna continue breaking it in the near future :)

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Thanks for trying the mod and writing back.  It's only a 60% chance, might explain the failure.  Could be some other technical reason though.

 

@dimitrius154 Can you think of any reason why the "et_chance_areasplash" spell token might not work with this configuration:

    spellClass = "cSpellSMove",
    spellcontroltype = "eCAtype_m_attackmove_jump",

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No reason for the splash damage not to trigger. The D2F "tw_cc_tkampfschild" uses the same mechanics entries as the "se_co_wirbelsprung", the animation entries are in order.

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Wow, you're quick :)
So I did some more testing and no, the 60% chance doesn't explain it. With the amount of "worthy attempts" I had I would honestly say even a 6% chance would have happened at least once. I also tried different weapon types (2h sword, 1h sword, sword type fist weapon) no difference. I tried taking the other silver mod: no they're not just description-switched either... I tried both bronze mods to figure out if the disarm mod causes some interference here - nope. I tried leaving the server and making a new one in case it doesn't register in the running game - nope.
I also tried raising CaLvl to 6 by eating 5runes just in case it doesn't work on level 1 - nope. I tried using it without the venom buff... that's not it either.
I can't come up with any more scenarios worth testing... without having more knowledge about how it usually works internally I don't really know where to look anymore. I am open for suggestions.

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Just tried a throwing star and a polearm as well... no luck.
Also found out that the damage scaling increase per level is lower than that of tiger strike which according to the wiki should be +10% on each so the absolute difference in damage values should be the same. And the level 1 skill damage of each is not what it's supposed to be (according to the wiki) either. Wiki says tiger strike 40%+10% would be 1.5 and Dragon Flight 20%+10% would be 1.3 but even the wiki's own damage at level onew wielding starting weapon shows that this math can never be correct the Tiger strike would in this case do more than 1.5 time the 1.3 from Dragon Strike so more than 2.1 times dmg:) Fun fact from ingame Dragon strike starts out with less damage than the basic attack...  I'm just guessing some massive balance changes hit Dragonflight, that the wiki's percent values don't account for but the "damage wielding starting weapon" does. I guess the wiki is just not fully up to date... telling you this just in case it's not as intended and you never noticed that "damage" might work very differently from some internal numbers or sth. like that... e.g. ingame I can tell that tiger strike says +50% damage and that is additive with other %dmg increases but in Vanille Hard HIt type CAs also have an additional scaling multiplicative more dmagae percentage. Same for those attack/multi hit type CA's those just might start at stuff like 0.9 which might mess up modded CA's if those multiplicative scalings are still there but not accounted for by the mod. I also notice that the wiki lists some added Damage numbers for Spells  on mod choices like telekinesis adding physical damage or something where you can prove ingame that "30 +15 per level physical damage added" results in the difference between CAlvl 1 and 2 increasing by a lot less than 15 like 9 or so... It's too bad to be caused by odd stuff like intelligence curves and stuff like that (odd behaviour from vanilla where with lots of Int and low Spell level/dmg +1CA level can reduce the damage substantially :)).... So my first guess to all these things is outdated wiki but just saying this if noone ever looked closely enough at the numbers and there actually are some internal mechanics that noone figured out jet...

And my apologies for not finding the edit button on this forum. If there is one please tell me where to look for it next time :)

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6 hours ago, SLD said:

Just tried a throwing star and a polearm as well... no luck.
Also found out that the damage scaling increase per level is lower than that of tiger strike which according to the wiki should be +10% on each so the absolute difference in damage values should be the same. And the level 1 skill damage of each is not what it's supposed to be (according to the wiki) either. Wiki says tiger strike 40%+10% would be 1.5 and Dragon Flight 20%+10% would be 1.3 but even the wiki's own damage at level onew wielding starting weapon shows that this math can never be correct the Tiger strike would in this case do more than 1.5 time the 1.3 from Dragon Strike so more than 2.1 times dmg:) Fun fact from ingame Dragon strike starts out with less damage than the basic attack...  I'm just guessing some massive balance changes hit Dragonflight, that the wiki's percent values don't account for but the "damage wielding starting weapon" does. I guess the wiki is just not fully up to date... telling you this just in case it's not as intended and you never noticed that "damage" might work very differently from some internal numbers or sth. like that... e.g. ingame I can tell that tiger strike says +50% damage and that is additive with other %dmg increases but in Vanille Hard HIt type CAs also have an additional scaling multiplicative more dmagae percentage. Same for those attack/multi hit type CA's those just might start at stuff like 0.9 which might mess up modded CA's if those multiplicative scalings are still there but not accounted for by the mod. I also notice that the wiki lists some added Damage numbers for Spells  on mod choices like telekinesis adding physical damage or something where you can prove ingame that "30 +15 per level physical damage added" results in the difference between CAlvl 1 and 2 increasing by a lot less than 15 like 9 or so... It's too bad to be caused by odd stuff like intelligence curves and stuff like that (odd behaviour from vanilla where with lots of Int and low Spell level/dmg +1CA level can reduce the damage substantially :)).... So my first guess to all these things is outdated wiki but just saying this if noone ever looked closely enough at the numbers and there actually are some internal mechanics that noone figured out jet...

And my apologies for not finding the edit button on this forum. If there is one please tell me where to look for it next time :)

Hi SLD and welcome to the forums!! :dance:

and edit button will appear normally after a few posts minimum.. kind of bot police :mafia: I've updated your membership here at DarkMatters to Members.  You'll now be able to upload a shiny new avatar if you want for your posts, make edits and upload to the sacred 2 downloads section.

Delighted to see you here on the boards and enjoying Sacred and its awesome community!

:gogo:

gogo

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2 hours ago, gogoblender said:

Hi SLD and welcome to the forums!! :dance:

and edit button will appear normally after a few posts minimum.. kind of bot police :mafia: I've updated your membership here at DarkMatters to Members.  You'll now be able to upload a shiny new avatar if you want for your posts, make edits and upload to the sacred 2 downloads section.

Delighted to see you here on the boards and enjoying Sacred and its awesome community!

:gogo:

gogo

Thank you! Technically I'm not "new" to the forums, this account is already 3 years old :)

I am glad the doublepost was not my fault :dance: 

As for the awesome community, I guess there's someone to thank for that. An awesome community needs an anwesome place to share and since the release of the original sacred so many forums and fansites that once supplied that, disappeared into the void. So much community created content is lost forever. Interesting how the internet never forgets anything, unless it's somerthing you would miss...
So I thank you and everyone else involved, for putting in all the personal time, work and resources to keep this community center running all these years :bow:

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16 hours ago, SLD said:

I guess the wiki is just not fully up to date... telling you this just in case it's not as intended and you never noticed that "damage" might work very differently from some internal numbers or sth. like that...

It's nothing nearly so complicated.  The D2F Wiki should be up to date, as far as all combat arts go.  Here's the shortcoming: I have raw numbers in the scripts to work with, when I try to make the tooltips or write out wiki formula.  A spell token (property) might read:

{"et_chance_poisoning", 500, 1, 0, 5 },

Which would accurately translate to 50% + 0.1% per level chance to poison.  Almost all spell tokens work out that way, where I can pinpoint the exact formula.

However when it comes to flat damage and flat armor values, it gets weird. A spell token might read:

{"et_spelldamage_magic", 350, 275, 0, 133 },

So is that 35.0 + 27.5 per level magic damage?  Or maybe 3.5 + 2.75 per level magic damage?  Well it's neither as far as I can tell.  Either because other calculations go into effect (attributes boosting damage, etc.) or because there's just some completely different relationship to the actual numbers, I can't say the exact increase per level.  It might actually be impossible to say.  All I can do is faithfully report the numbers in the scripts.

16 hours ago, SLD said:

Also found out that the damage scaling increase per level is lower than that of tiger strike which according to the wiki should be +10% on each so the absolute difference in damage values should be the same. And the level 1 skill damage of each is not what it's supposed to be (according to the wiki) either. Wiki says tiger strike 40%+10% would be 1.5 and Dragon Flight 20%+10% would be 1.3 but even the wiki's own damage at level onew wielding starting weapon shows that this math can never be correct the Tiger strike would in this case do more than 1.5 time the 1.3 from Dragon Strike so more than 2.1 times dmg:)

There's a weapon damage multiplier in play, in addition to the total damage multiplier.  Why have two different ones?  My lazy answer is that's how all weapon CA's are done in Sacred 2, so I kept up the tradition.

Dragon Flight's Weapon Damage modifier: 80% + 0.4% per level

Tiger Strike's Weapon Damage modifier: 120% + 0.5% per level

Therefore Tiger Strike, being the bruising "hard hit" of the selection, will always outclass the other Martial Arts CA's in raw damage.

 

I plan to return to D2F later this year, to release the ultimate final version of the mod with version 15.  Any feedback is most welcome.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Flix said:

I can't say the exact increase per level.  It might actually be impossible to say.  All I can do is faithfully report the numbers in the scripts.

So at least you do know, that you don't know.:) I'm pretty sure this stuff isn't random so given enough raw data of different input values and ingame results a mathematician can create a pretty accurate formula most likely even the exact one the game uses. But don't take this as criticism of your work. You made an awesome gigantic mod that overhauls everything. That kind of work needs first and foremost an artist. Who cares about the exact formulas, you can balance the stuff just by looking at some early game and late game result numbers and never need to know how it internally works, which I guess is exactly what you've done so far.

 

8 hours ago, Flix said:

There's a weapon damage multiplier in play, in addition to the total damage multiplier.  Why have two different ones?  My lazy answer is that's how all weapon CA's are done in Sacred 2, so I kept up the tradition.

Actually, that multiplicative damage% modifier is what makes CAs valuable in this game as you can stuff your character full of thousands of the additive% type and otherwise it wouldn't be worth using the "hard hit" at all given that you have to invest into some sort regeneration solution to use it properly. So yeah it's good its there :)

 

8 hours ago, Flix said:

Dragon Flight's Weapon Damage modifier: 80% + 0.4% per level

Tiger Strike's Weapon Damage modifier: 120% + 0.5% per level

Just did the math with these numbers and now the relation is off in favor of the dragon strike which is good because damage from the attribute is unaffected by the %bonuses and I didn't bother to account for that :)
Without you sharing these numbers though noone could understand whats written in the wiki. I am very grateful for the thorough wiki entries and you trying to accurately describe everything there, but then I must say, with this damage modifier you left out the most important line on the base CA description. And that probably affects all Weapon CA's of all the classes. As you have acces to these modifier numbers and even the accurate ones this time :) maybe, add this information to the wiki pages of each of the weapon based CAs? Would be nice if you can find the time for that.
And just to be clear, these are suggestions as to what could be better not demands for what I want. I can't properly choose my words to conevey my gratitude as my proficiency at the use of this great international language is horribly lacking, so please, never let my suggestions get to you. D2F is a great piece of art, that you can be proud of without needing to change anything.

8 hours ago, Flix said:

Therefore Tiger Strike, being the bruising "hard hit" of the selection, will always outclass the other Martial Arts CA's in raw damage.

Just for nitpicking, this statement is wrong. If your base damage is low enough like with bare hand or a very low level weapon on a high level char with high level CAs both Fists of Fire and Claws of Thunder would beat Tiger Strike because of their added integer weapon damage (firedmg/magicdmg). I tootally had to say this:)
 

8 hours ago, Flix said:

I plan to return to D2F later this year, to release the ultimate final version of the mod with version 15.  Any feedback is most welcome.

Holy crap! A final version? This year? Should I now take this mod as my full time job to find all the things you still have to fix before you release that version 15? I mean I just played a few days and already found so many things wrong :)
Just as an example:
1. Have you ever tried ranged weapons like magic wands or energy pistols with the assassin CAs? Doesn't look like you did as these CAs have very odd behaviour.

2. I have seen in the Assassin desighn thread you told us you added the option for shields, which is fine. And 2h swords using 1h animation, also kinda fine though I think that makes them attack at the same rate which is kind imba. Also he gotta be really strong for that:)
But Polearms are now a real stretch at how he swings those things... well ok I guess its not much worse than the swords...
But as I haven't seen you mention them I was quite surprise the Assassin could equip 2h Energy Staff weapons. I was wondering how he shoots with those... Well he uses 1h attack animation :4rofl: He swings a giant stick with one hand and then a projectile appears and flies away... except for the one hand thing you kinda recreated a bug that could happen with the BFG in Sacred Underworld :4rofl:You're now originally an Ascaron level Game Dev. 

3. Untested yet, but assuming the Wiki is correct you created the most ridiculously broken single target spell ever conceivable. The Amazon's Lightning Bolt with gold mod Siphon claims to do 0.5% + 0.1% per CAlvl life leech on hit with this spell. Further below the Wiki confirms at the asymptotic max level of 200 that would get you a 20.5% leech hit. This already seems quite high but what follows and what I assume to be a Wiki mistake would actually make the screws fligh off this game:
"Storm Combat Lore - improves combat art damage (including life leech), critical chance and casting speed, allows for modification points."
Storm Combat Lore at level 200+ can reach more than 400% increase turning Lightning Bolt's high leech percentage into a potential 100% leech monster that could oneshot every boss in the game that doesn't have an energy shield. Unless there's more than one player of course. Yes I know some game mechanics too :)
So my first guess is Wiki fail because the lore would work on integer leech but not on percent leech. Otherwise I guess a balance fix would be needed and also pretty easy to include just by deviding the scaling mod value by 5. I don't think you intended the boss oneshot skill :)

Only a few days and so much stuff that I've found. Just by playing more I could probably delay the final version forever... I hope you don't take me too serious. I don't think I want to commit that much time to making a comprehensive list of everything that could be improved upon. And don't feel bad about this "horrible" quality of your mod either, if I apply the same sruitiny to the original Sacred 2 even with CM Patch I can name a ton of gamebreaking horrors
that never got fixed.

Your mod is great, if I feel like it, I will report some more broken stuff as I go along playing this mod.
And remember you don't have to fix anything,
all you really ever have to do is Flix :)

Edited by SLD
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Life leech damage:

there is a different between x and x% lifeleech. Only the x damage is multiplied by the lore.

 

Base weapon damage and base damage via a combat art

+x% damage via CA, equipment, ...

stat damage modifyer

and

base damage multiplyer

 

The last is very useful to balance damage. If you are satisfied with the shape of the damage curve but not with the amount, then you can modify the damage multiplyer.

 

For testing: make sure you kill allways the same monsters. The more monsters of a type you kill the more monster bonus you get for them: it adds to x% damage I think.

Beware of criticals, don't put them in your tests.

 

I am a philosoph(*). I remember massacring 300 of innocent wolves to make the curve for armour versus damage in 2009.

And around 100 for finding the experience curve.

(*) At my old university mathematics belonged to philosophy. So I have a diploma in mathematics and physics. But my doctor is a dr.phil. The phil is way more useful then a .rer.nat in politics ;)

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47 minutes ago, chattius said:

there is a different between x and x% lifeleech. Only the x damage is multiplied by the lore.

as I said:

4 hours ago, SLD said:

So my first guess is Wiki fail because the lore would work on integer leech but not on percent leech.

 

55 minutes ago, chattius said:

Base weapon damage and base damage via a combat art

+x% damage via CA, equipment, ...

stat damage modifyer

and

base damage multiplyer

Not sure what the list is meant to say my best guess would be each line is supposed to give a different category of effect in the damage calculation?

In this case the first line would probably be more like the sum of all applicable sources of #dmg (less confusing than "weapon damage" that can come from rings and other items...)

Second line is all sources of %damage increase, ie. CA, equipment, WIDD(if hp not full), Skills(like Tactics lore). These are all added together.

Third line I guess with "stat" you mean the damage bonus from attributes. No idea how this one is calculated. For weapon attacks I can say for sure it creates a number based only on the Weapon portion of #damage (no rings etc unless socketed directly into the weapon) that remains then unaffected by all sources of %damage increase. Really weird stuff. Intelligence on spells is completely different thing as I've described further up it can have reduced effect for higher level CAs which can in certain cases lead to CAs decreasing in damage if you level them.

and then theres line four base damage multipli*er. The hidden thing that weapon attack CAs have. My guess is that spells do have a fixed value of this as well which screws up Flix's added damage numbers making them seem "off"... but thats just a guess.

Then there's the deathblow mechanic that is also a multiplicative factor 2 (as long as the enemy is below the hü threshold). I can't say with certainty that this is not added to the CA damage multiplier.
Same goes for the "creature type bonus damage" that you gain from killing monsters. It is certainly not added to %damage increase (line 2) but it might be additive with CA damage multiplier. I doubt it though.
And then you can get a critical hit which is a factor of 1.2 in the base game and I think 1.5 in this mod.

I believe all these mods are multiplicative:
("CA base damage multiplier" x "deathblow" x "creature type bonus damage" x "critical damage") x "%damage increase" x "#dmg"
but believe is not proof. Im certain of the the three main multipliers but the contents of the bracket() could be interacting differently with each other than shown here.

All these unknown interactions I've listed could be tested if there is someone motivated enough to put in the work. Sadly I have to disappoint here. As a heavily disabled person I already take more than an hour out of my day just to write a single post like this. As someone who has sacrificed many wolves to science maybe it's more up your alley :)

 

1 hour ago, chattius said:

I remember massacring 300 of innocent wolves to make the curve for armour versus damage in 2009.

And around 100 for finding the experience curve.

I thank you for your service to the community. It is highly appreciated.
But after noticing your very feline profile pic, I must admit I have doubts you felt no joy in a canine massacre:pirate::)
 

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I've been meaning to change Siphon's LL% to flat Life Leeched per Hit.  However, I am now anticipating that in v15, LL% will finally be fixed and no longer the broken modifier that is has been.

This is because it will be fixed to calculate the damage based on the remaining hitpoints, rather than the opponent's total hitpoints. So it will deliver diminishing returns as opponent health decreases (like Static Field from D2, if you're familiar).

Also it is correct that  Lore skills only boost flat (not percentage) damage/armor, including Life Leech.

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11 hours ago, Flix said:

I've been meaning to change Siphon's LL% to flat Life Leeched per Hit.  However, I am now anticipating that in v15, LL% will finally be fixed and no longer the broken modifier that is has been.

This is because it will be fixed to calculate the damage based on the remaining hitpoints, rather than the opponent's total hitpoints. So it will deliver diminishing returns as opponent health decreases (like Static Field from D2, if you're familiar).

That sounds like a reasonable balancing approach, though it would still be mandatory for every character, who can make use of it... just like Static Field :)

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Posted (edited)
On 3/31/2021 at 10:38 PM, Flix said:

D2F Wiki should be up to date, as far as all combat arts go. 

And then there's my Amazon's Inner Sight buff... Silver mod Submission... Wiki says 25% + 0.3% per level... Ingame tooltip says 25% + 0.1% per level... When I have the mod points I'll find out which one is more "up to date" :)

Edit: Sigma says 25.2% on both CAlvl 2 and 3 and 25.3% on CAlvl 4 but 25.5% at CAlvl 5... So its far away from the wiki numbers and somehow sometimes a bit off from the ingame description. The former problem I would conclude to be an outdated wiki entry and the latter a "Sacred 2 does what it wants" kinda thing as ultimately, it always does :)

Edited by SLD
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