Does Ll% Work Properly On Consoles?

[lujate 578]

Until recently, I believed that LL% worked properly on the consoles and that the Additional Damage displayed on the screen was just off by 3 decimal places. A recent discussion on this forum made me question that, so I conducted a little experiment.

 

I dug a 3% LL two-handed sword out of my chest and went to kill Kral the Winged Demon. I first destroyed the four Energy Stations that occupy the corners of his arena. In the process, Kral took a small amount of damage when he got too close (thanks console targeting). Kral had 340,875 hit points, so I would expect a 3% LL to drain 10,226 per hit and to kill him in 34 hits (assuming 0 regular damage). The Additional Damage messages all showed 8 or 10. It took 47 hits to kill Kral. My overview is showing 2566-3322 damage for this sword. 47 hits for minimum damage would be 120,602.

 

Overall, this simply bolstered my doubts about LL%. Does my conclusion sound reasonable?

[wolfie2kX 528]

Until recently, I believed that LL% worked properly on the consoles and that the Additional Damage displayed on the screen was just off by 3 decimal places. A recent discussion on this forum made me question that, so I conducted a little experiment.

 

I dug a 3% LL two-handed sword out of my chest and went to kill Kral the Winged Demon. I first destroyed the four Energy Stations that occupy the corners of his arena. In the process, Kral took a small amount of damage when he got too close (thanks console targeting). Kral had 340,875 hit points, so I would expect a 3% LL to drain 10,226 per hit and to kill him in 34 hits (assuming 0 regular damage). The Additional Damage messages all showed 8 or 10. It took 47 hits to kill Kral. My overview is showing 2566-3322 damage for this sword. 47 hits for minimum damage would be 120,602.

 

Overall, this simply bolstered my doubts about LL%. Does my conclusion sound reasonable?

 

Maybe... I'm assuming that the Kral beastie wasn't just sitting there letting you whack away at him - and I'm guessing he was doing some damage to YOU in the meantime. The thing to be looking at - is your health meter - did it go down only or did it ever recover at any point while you were still engaged in combat without having to suck down health potion(s)?

 

If your health meter recovered somewhat while you were still whacking away at Kral, and you weren't doing a potion, then, LL was indeed working.

[Dragon Brother 619]

Also, kral was probably healing at the same time.

[AxP 0]

okay im not a pro when it comes to sacred, in fact I havent even seen this boss yet in the main quest... so dont take my word for what im about to say:

 

usually LL% works as your damage = the amount you will heal yourself when you attack in melee, thats the way it works in most other games, ie Diable 2.

 

to me it sounded like your were thinking that LL would take away % of the targets hitpoints. which it does not

quote: "Kral had 340,875 hit points, so I would expect a 3% LL to drain 10,226 per hit and to kill him in 34 hits (assuming 0 regular damage)."

 

in otherwords, LL is not an offensive stat, its a defensive. it steals health based on your damage, but in most games ive known they dont "lose" the amount of HP.

 

example:

you do 100 dmg, and have 25% LL. meaning you would do a total of 125 damage to the enemy. however what I have seen ( based on experience but not experiments) is that the enemy looses 100 health (from the example) but in addition you gain the 25 HP without the enemy taking the extra dmg,

 

hope I cleared out something, and even more important I hope what I said about sacred is true... which I believe it is

[vaskov17 1]

The wiki suggests that life leech % does damage to the % multiplied by the enemy's initial hit points, so a weapon with 2% LL should kill an enmy in 50 hits.

 

Sacred Wiki -> Life Leech %

 

Check out this video and specifically the "Additional damage" messages: Video

Edited December 30, 2010 by vaskov17

[chattius 2,526]

Additional damage by life leech on consoles is like 2.34 on PC. It is divided by 1000 and rounded down.

 

PC 2.34

0-999 life leech damage= no message shown

1000-1999: Extraschaden 1= additional damage 1

2000-2999: additional damage 2

3000-3999: 3

...

 

It is damage and healing. And it can be reflected. So a 3% hit on a reflector would be 9000 damage on a 300000hp beast. Reflected it would heal the beast for 9000 and you would receive the 9000 damage.

 

The leech is allways from the current (not initial) maximum hitpoints of the target. (Someone with better english fix this in wiki).

 

3% leech from 300000 health from 300000 max: 9000 additional damage

3% leech from 150000 health from 300000 max: 9000 additional damage

 

3% leech from a 20% weakened initial 300000hp beast: 240000 current max hitpoints (weakening) so only 7200 additional damage.

 

If you mix life leech weapon hits with stat reducing spells, deep wounds, weakening you see the additional damage change every time an effect is put on or leaves, at least in the AddOn where the full extra damage is shown, not divided by 1000.

Edited December 30, 2010 by chattius

[wolfie2kX 528]

okay im not a pro when it comes to sacred, in fact I havent even seen this boss yet in the main quest... so dont take my word for what im about to say:

 

usually LL% works as your damage = the amount you will heal yourself when you attack in melee, thats the way it works in most other games, ie Diable 2.

 

to me it sounded like your were thinking that LL would take away % of the targets hitpoints. which it does not

quote: "Kral had 340,875 hit points, so I would expect a 3% LL to drain 10,226 per hit and to kill him in 34 hits (assuming 0 regular damage)."

 

in otherwords, LL is not an offensive stat, its a defensive. it steals health based on your damage, but in most games ive known they dont "lose" the amount of HP.

 

example:

you do 100 dmg, and have 25% LL. meaning you would do a total of 125 damage to the enemy. however what I have seen ( based on experience but not experiments) is that the enemy looses 100 health (from the example) but in addition you gain the 25 HP without the enemy taking the extra dmg,

 

hope I cleared out something, and even more important I hope what I said about sacred is true... which I believe it is

 

Actually... it's neither purely offensive nor purely defensive. It's both. Anything that delivers additional damage is offensive and anything that heals you is defensive...

 

There are actually TWO kinds of life leech. There's a fixed variety found in lower levels (bronze, silver) and there's LL % which is a fixed percentage of the baddies original hit points. The fixed variety will take exactly the same amount of hit points from the baddie regardless of how many hit points it has. Say, you've got a weapon with Life Leech +14 on your weapon and you've forged a leech suit (using Dryad or Inquisitor runes) and your sigma now reads you've got Life Leech at +50. Every baddie you hit regardless of how many hit points will get additional damage 50 until it drops dead.

 

The bad guy's life force is measured in hit points. Let's say it has 1000 hit points to begin. Your weapon does 100 damage and you've got 50 fixed life leech points per hit. That's 150 damage dealt to the baddie every time you hit it.

 

Now LL % is a bit different. Let's say you've got a weapon with 1% of Life Leech as a modifier. It does 100 damage. You're up against some critter with 1000 hit points. 1% of 1000 is 10. So your 100 damage plus the 10 from the 1% gives you only 110 damage.

 

Of course, those are rather heavily oversimplified examples. Weapons do a range of damage - not every hit will be at maximum doing the most damage. And there are other modifiers to how much actual damage is dealt per hit - such as the various weapon lores, + skills amulets, Combat lores, and attributes such as Strength.

 

On higher level baddies - bosses and even regular mobs when you get to Gold, Platinum or Niobium, where the average baddie's hit points start MUCH higher than on Bronze or Silver, you get a higher percentage of life leeched per hit. Leech enabled weapons also tend to have higher percentages the higher you go.

 

One other thing to note - when you've been hit and your hit points are down, you won't see the Additional Damage xx message. You'll see a different one - in green - that says Healing xx instead. Which is why I suggested the OP look at his health meter. The meter would have gone up and down on it's own if LL was working properly.

[lujate 578]

Last night, I ran a couple of more tests. First, I took out Kral again. This time, I destroyed the Energy Stations and then retreated so he could regenerate (which took forever). Then was the Facettelion. Here are the numbers (using averages and approximations since I could not record the exact damage per hit).

 

Kral

295,425 hit points

Additional Damage 8's & 10's

Regular hits 4-5k damage

Deathblow (27.7%) 11k damage

51 hits total

 

Total regular hits: 166.5k (37 * 4.5k)

Total deathblow hits: 154k (14 * 11k)

Normal total: 320k

 

3% LL damage: 452k (51 * 8862)

 

Grand total: 772k

 

 

Facettelion

413,942 hit points

Additional Damage 12's & 14's

Regular hits 4-6k damage

Deathblow (27.7%) 9-14k damage

81 hits total

 

Total regular hits: 295k (59 * 5k)

Total deathblow hits: 253k (22 * 11.5k)

Normal damage: 548k

 

3% LL damage: 633k (81 * 12418)

 

Grand total: 1181k

 

 

Based on these approximations, it seems to me that LL% was not working as I expect. I did have 100% HP the entire time. Is it possible that LL% only works if your character HP is below 100%?

 

 

 

wolfie2kX:

No, I did not take any damage. My DP and damage mitigation is high enough that I did not lose any HP.

 

Dragon Brother:

Based on the numbers I posted at the top of this post, I don't think HP regen can explain this.

 

vaskov17:

I went and re-read the wiki page but did not find anything to explain this. I watched the video but was not able to make out the Additional Damage values. I did notice the blue streaks when she was attacking, which tells me that is on a newer patch than the consoles run.

 

chattius:

If I understand you, you are saying that LL% is based on the enemies current, not initial, hit points. The wiki is quite specific that it is based on initial hit points, although I cannot say if that is accurate. I can say that the Additional Damage values I see do not seem to change as the target HP are reduced.

[wolfie2kX 528]

OK.. So you got 8's and 10's for the Kral beastie and 12's and 14's for the Facetellion.

 

I did also say that all weapons do a RANGE of damage. On lower levels it may be something like 40 - 57. And on higher ones it will be a lot more. And there are other mitigating forces involved - socketed rings/amulets, armor bonuses, skills, attributes, etc... Your actual damage per hit WILL vary.

 

Don't forget there are other factors that have an effect on any combat scenario as well. Stuff like Opponent's chance to evade. You can't count a swing and a miss as a hit.

[lujate 578]

...

You can't count a swing and a miss as a hit.

With the speed my DW Seraphim swings that two-handed sword, I have no trouble counting actual hits by simply watching for the damage numbers that appear.

[essjayehm 58]

I do have a couple of coppers to contribute, although it's probably not a lot of help with the actual issue...

 

We see different "additional damage"/"healing" numbers as you inflict / stack HP-reducing effects (ie weaken, deep/deadly/serious open wounds). So, 10k LL% vs. Kraal @ full-HP, but only 8k when you have him weakened/etc.

 

BUT, this still has no effect on the "3% LL = 34 hits" factor. It doesn't matter what the enemy HP is, 100 or 100,000; 3% per hit should still drop anything in 34 hits.

 

Theory 1 (0.5% possibility)- Rooster has said that some enemies have abilities/Combat Arts that nerf leech abilities. He specificaly noted the minotaurs' stomp move as reference. I do not think this is the case here, specifically because Lujate tried different bosses. But it could be the case with these 2 bosses, IDK.

 

Theory 2 (0.5% possibility)- Chattius has said that attribute-reducing effects have diminishing returns, ie if you have -29% opp. attributes from Dislodged Spirit, the actual reduction in attributes is less than 29% even with only 1 cast; and as more DS's are stacked, the diminishing returns ensure that >100% attribute reduction does not happen. Possibly this effect also applies to LL%. This could be the case, and there is no true way to test on consoles, without hacking the game files.

 

Theory 3 (99%)- fecal matter buggy console.

Edited December 30, 2010 by essjayehm

[AxP 0]

ok it seemed I was wrong, my bad. but I did warn you about me not being an expert in sacred.

 

but im just wondering, does niob mobs and bosses have SICK HP pools or somekind of migation from player dmg? since if LL% works as a dmg moddifer for the player and dealing extra dmg depending on the monsters hp bar.

 

what im trying to say is that LL% seems overpowered, but I could be wrong, just that receiving additional dmg from a mob just because it has a high hp pool seems like a very strong mod.

 

correct me if im wrong and its not OP

[AxP 0]

btw ive got a slight offtopic question,

 

is it possible to farm the same bosses in single player? because I remember when my friend played on xbox we could enable "free world" and just farm bosses.

 

but I cannot seem to find that function here on PC SP, however I found it on multiplayer.

 

its just that im assuming that u are farming kral and the other boss...or not?

[lujate 578]

I went back to visit my friend Kral again. This time, I plugged a full size keyboard into my laptop and ten-keyed the yellow damage figures as they scrolled across the screen. Kral had 298,963 points and my sword damage totaled about 275,290 (the first three hits all I got were the thousands and hundreds places). The sword damage falls 23,673 points short of the overall HP, but I realized that I was forgetting the reflect damage caused my Battle Stance buff. It was generating a steady stream of 500-600 HP of damage. I'm going to try it again without Battle Stance and see how it goes, but I doubt I'll be able to conduct this test without BS.

 

The very last Additional Damage message still showed "8", so I think it is based on starting HP not current HP.

[lujate 578]

I tried Kral without Battle Stance, but I quickly discovered that its 507.3% defense bonus is essential. Without BS, Kral tore threw my Divine Protection like it was tin foil. I had to fire my Divine Gift and spam heal potions to stay alive long enough to bring up BS.

 

I cannot keep track of both sword damage and BS damage at the same time, the BS damage goes too fast. The best thing I could do was count the number of BS reflect hits. I counted 35 hits, virtually all for 538 points (a few were in the 600's), which gives 18,830 points of damage. In the last battle, the sword damage was 23k short of Kral's total HP. I know that trying to combine points from different battles is less than ideal, but the sword and BS damages together seem to account for virtually all of Kral's HP.

[essjayehm 58]

Hehehe... welcome to the wonderful world of "testing" in Sacred 2. Soooo many factors to keep track of, it is extremely important to really think out a testing process before hammering out results.

 

But your analysis is starting to make some "sense" - the LL% is not actually damaging the enemy, but the healing part of the mod is working correctly.

 

I should be able to pick up a LL% weapon for my Inquisitor soon, I will slap some dudes around with it and see if that is indeed true.

 

GOOD WORK!

[lujate 578]

I am a programmer by profession, so testing is something I can do. The problem here is that I know of more variables than I can control, not to mention the variables that I do not even know about.

[vaskov17 1]

I think it's fairly safe to assume the developers have different functions to calculate damage and health regeneration. A misplaced decimal point in one of them could be responsible for the difference between the damage dealth and health regenerated from life leech.

[lujate 578]

It is a commonly accepted belief in the community that the Additional Damage displayed on the consoles is off by 3 decimal places. Does anyone know where this idea came from?

[essjayehm 58]

I am a programmer by profession, so testing is something I can do. The problem here is that I know of more variables than I can control, not to mention the variables that I do not even know about.

Haha... I was going to say something about knowing how the game is calculating x (whatever is being tested) before really delving into what is happening. Luckily, we have the PC versions that can give us hints; but unfortunately without cracking the console and tearing thru the actual game files we cannot truly know what is happening.

 

Probably the ONLY reason we've made any headway into this mystery is because you decided to record and detail out the damages that were involved. Otherwise, it would still be a mess of unsupported math.

 

Vaskov has another point that I completely whiffed on - the damage portion of the LL% could have a decimal error (probably at least 2 places, ie a factor of 100)

[wolfie2kX 528]

It is a commonly accepted belief in the community that the Additional Damage displayed on the consoles is off by 3 decimal places. Does anyone know where this idea came from?

 

I believe Chattius said it's because it's like a rather old version for the PC:

 

Additional damage by life leech on consoles is like 2.34 on PC. It is divided by 1000 and rounded down.

 

PC 2.34

0-999 life leech damage= no message shown

1000-1999: Extraschaden 1= additional damage 1

2000-2999: additional damage 2

3000-3999: 3

...

 

 

I would assume he's had experience with and access to both the PC and Console versions.

[lujate 578]

The Additional Damage displayed on the screen appears to be off by 3 decimals places (1/1000th of expected value). My theory, at this time, is that the Additional Damage displayed is the actual damage.

 

As for the healing aspect of LL%, I have not even started on that one yet.

 

 

Edit:

wolfie2kX-That makes sense as to how the Additional Damage is calculated. The assumption is that the damage shown and what is actually applied are different values. My tests seem to debunk that assumption.

Edited December 30, 2010 by lujate

[vaskov17 1]

Luckily, we have the PC versions that can give us hints; but unfortunately without cracking the console and tearing thru the actual game files we cannot truly know what is happening.

 

This begs the question whether anyone has ever looked at the 4GB of game data Sacred installs onto the PS3 drive.

[lujate 578]

I was just now reading the LL page over on the wiki and saw this:

. When using this modifier, for each successful hit, a player will gain the "+X%" amount of health from the enemy's hitpoints while inflicting the same amount of damage. The damage is unresisted. This modifier will have no effect if the character is already at full health.

I understand that to mean that LL does nothing (healing or damage) unless your character is injured.

 

What does everyone else think?

[locolagarto 15]

I was just now reading the LL page over on the wiki and saw this:

. When using this modifier, for each successful hit, a player will gain the "+X%" amount of health from the enemy's hitpoints while inflicting the same amount of damage. The damage is unresisted. This modifier will have no effect if the character is already at full health.

I understand that to mean that LL does nothing (healing or damage) unless your character is injured.

 

What does everyone else think?

 

Not the case at all.

 

LL does damage with every successful hit. However only heals with a successful hit if your characters health falls below 100%.

 

additionally my experience on XBOX and PC would suggest the 1/1000 calculation error is accurate. And it is not a display error, its an actually calculation error.

 

Same for the chance to find valuables calculation given for map revealed. That doesn't calculate correctly on Console either.