Fewer Hits per kill improves drops! No it doesn't! Yes it does!

[Knuckles 904]

I can run a poor boy Shadow Warrior (I hate shopping anyways). Might be a day or 2 before I have the time to do it though, and might not be able to til this weekend but then I can make a few runs.

 

p.s. Should we be in a server by ourselves? Figure we don't want to add variables there. Also does it matter if it's SP or MP ?

[claudius 104]

I'm willing to run a character through probably as a poor boy with niob smith anneals (to not die) but the problem is I am US so I would be a different version of the game so probably no.

 

I am also willing to figure out how to do the statistics and tell you guys to what confidence level your data is beyond random chance.

[Knuckles 904]

I'm willing to run a character through probably as a poor boy with niob smith anneals (to not die) but the problem is I am US so I would be a different version of the game so probably no.

 

I am also willing to figure out how to do the statistics and tell you guys to what confidence level your data is beyond random chance.

 

AFAIK both the U.S. and U.K. are exactly the same as far as game-play goes...so making a run on U.S. servers should be relevant to the testing.

[Schot 407]

Nice to see such interest in the testing. I'm eager to turn theory into fact! How about I create the gear for both poor boy and snob and then export them. I can then upload them here for everyone to download and test with. More accurate results this way.

[Dobri 55]

Good idea, Schot. The test can be run on LAN as well - there is no need for Closed net HC, as long as the balance.txt has not been tweaked.

[Dragon Brother 619]

Sounds good to me, I'd be willing to give it a go.

[Barristan 14]

Heya,

 

I would play a snob Temple Guardian.... just if we do this eventlike.... outside the events... all I really like to do is farming Guardians YOU MADE ME DO IT! YOU MADE ME DO IT! YES YOU DID!

 

Waaaaaaaah!

 

enough will the battle frenzy!

 

Greetz

[Schot 407]

lol Barris. I think you gots tha Gold Rush! ^^

 

Sounds good all. I'll put together some characters today. I worked on them a bit last night.

[Andrew581257 0]

Hi

 

I am new to this forum, this is my opinion

 

I think the drops rate should be type of enemy, for example, mini boss, loads of gold, 1 unique drop, 2 gold item drops

 

big boss = boat loads of gold like 50,000, 3 unque drops (random on charactor class could be for like dryade, seraphin), 8 gold items

 

only make unique drop from min and big bosses

and on rare ocassions from leader bosses

 

leaders can drop 1 gold item

[Dobri 55]

No bosses allowed, Andrew

 

Drops will be determined by kobold runs from western tyr lysia upward. No quests of any sort and no griffin killing. poor boy's allowed to have niob smith arts for protection.

[Barristan 14]

lol Barris. I think you gots tha Gold Rush! ^^

 

Sounds good all. I'll put together some characters today. I worked on them a bit last night.

 

More like Gold fever! Hehe... payed tho... level 230 Instrument of the Assassin.

 

Greetz

[Schot 407]

Hi

 

I am new to this forum, this is my opinion

 

I think the drops rate should be type of enemy, for example, mini boss, loads of gold, 1 unique drop, 2 gold item drops

 

big boss = boat loads of gold like 50,000, 3 unque drops (random on charactor class could be for like dryade, seraphin), 8 gold items

 

only make unique drop from min and big bosses

and on rare ocassions from leader bosses

 

leaders can drop 1 gold item

 

Hey there Andrew and welcome. Thank you for the important info that will help new players understand what we're trying to discover here. You have the right idea about those types of enemies and their drops. It's somewhat more complicated but you're on the right track. That reminds me... Woody and I were working on a list of enemy types and their drops. Feel free to jump in on that.

Sacred 2 Enemy Drop List, Who drops what?

 

P.s.

I'll re-post the list of requirements when I have the character downloads ready.

[Barristan 14]

Heya,

 

starting to shop and forge my kit. I am going snob-Temple Guardian! Did I mention that.... ?

 

Will pimp-slap 100 Kobold and post results.

 

Temple Guardian is not negotiable You are however allowed to totally discard my findings

 

Greetz

 

Well... that was spectacular...

 

10x Grey item

7x Blue item

10x Rune

2x Book

13x Potion

4x Trophy

 

As you all can see.... I used NO luck whatsoever

Edited March 16, 2010 by Barristan

[Schot 407]

I dunno Barris... I'm pretty sure I saw you praying behind that statue there. Thanx for the findings!

 

P.s.

What Combat Arts did you use?

[Barristan 14]

Heya,

 

used T-Energy Shroud and Battle Extension.

 

Decided to make this toon into my own build challenge

 

EP-Barg-Smith. Only findings, no Niob arts, nothing from shared stash... no level boosts, no gifts, no cash muling, no NPC smithing... nothing.

 

Gear based on what is found, can be bargained and smithed on actual level of difficulty. Pretty fun!

 

Greetz

Edited March 16, 2010 by Barristan

[locolagarto 15]

Heya,

 

used T-Energy Shroud and Battle Extension.

 

Decided to make this toon into my own build challenge

 

EP-Barg-Smith. Only findings, no Niob arts, nothing from shared stash... no level boosts, no gifts, no cash muling, no NPC smithing... nothing.

 

Gear based on what is found, can be bargained and smithed on actual level of difficulty. Pretty fun!

 

Greetz

 

A bit of a challenge there Mr 200? Sound interesting!

[Barristan 14]

Heya,

 

yeah... needed a challenge Got up to level 21 today. Forgot what an impact those Niob arts make.... My little Temple Guardian can smith 7% damage... whereas I would have 50% per slot if I used my smith

 

It is fun tho... had some fun with Kobold Chief (he had fun first... but I came back!)

 

First set I found was a bless! Even if it was wrong aspect, bad mods

 

Welcome to join the challenge anytime

 

Greetz

Edited March 16, 2010 by Barristan

[claudius 104]

If you want to get meaningful data you need to decide what you are measuring (uniques?). And where you are farming (bosses? runs? what?). So everyone can be standardized. Also things like if you can wear MF gear or XP gear or have EP.

 

I can only do statistics if everyone is on a level playing field controlling variables.

[Schot 407]

Heya claudius. For the most part I have the requirements for testing laid out. It needs just a bit more tweaking and some time on my part to create the standardized characters. You can see what I've listed in post #13 and post #19.

 

As for measuring I think what will simplify comparisons will be to just throw away(Not pick up) all Whites and Greys. What is left will be to compare # of Blues, Yellows, Sets, Uniques, Legendaries(Ha!).

 

The Gold Diggers event kinda stole my time away.

 

 

Random Thought; Item Quality Dice Rolls:

 

First hit Rolls with a 5 sided die.

Second hit rolls with a 10 sided die.

Third hit rolls with a 15 sided die.

All hits thereafter roll with a 20 sided die.

Dice roll results are tallied together to produce value that determines drop quality.

[locolagarto 15]

Heya claudius. For the most part I have the requirements for testing laid out. It needs just a bit more tweaking and some time on my part to create the standardized characters. You can see what I've listed in post #13 and post #19.

 

As for measuring I think what will simplify comparisons will be to just throw away(Not pick up) all Whites and Greys. What is left will be to compare # of Blues, Yellows, Sets, Uniques, Legendaries(Ha!).

 

The Gold Diggers event kinda stole my time away.

 

 

Random Thought; Item Quality Dice Rolls:

 

First hit Rolls with a 5 sided die.

Second hit rolls with a 10 sided die.

Third hit rolls with a 15 sided die.

All hits thereafter roll with a 20 sided die.

Dice roll results are tallied together to produce value that determines drop quality.

 

Whoa! now the dice roll idea is just an idea right? Cause this would seem to be exactly the way they could have added the speed of kill = drop chance functionallity in to the game. not by time or damage per hit, but count hits and change the formula for the chance to drop accordingly. Very interesting

[Schot 407]

It just kinda hit me as I was typing a response to claudius. I've toyed with the idea that number of hits to kill could have a role in drop quality but I never took it further. Whew! These flu meds are great! ^^ Just an idea though, yup.

 

I'd be surprised if that wasn't already being used in some kind of a game. It seems to make sense to me and also relatively simple. I can't imagine that would be hard to implement.

 

That said we should probably keep an eye on number of hits.

 

Oh and one other thing that would make sense to me in dice roll results:

 

First hit Rolls with a 5 sided die.

Second hit rolls with a 10 sided die.

Third hit rolls with a 15 sided die.

All hits thereafter roll with a 20 sided die.

Misses count as a 0 value (worst value)

Dice roll results are tallied together to produce value that determines drop quality.

[tapir 0]

Now for a simple test. The simplest test I can think of and in fact probably the reason for my belief in damage effecting drops is to compare two level 1 characters.

1. Player 1 starts a new character and plays up to level 20 using only items that drop as they are playing. No purchases of fancy jewelry or uber weapons. In fact it is player 1's duty to ensure they do not have exceptional damage. You should expect to need about 5 hits per kill at least. Against a champion about 10 hits per kill.
   
2. Player 2 is the privileged child. Player 2 will have his/her gear tailored and delivered. Ensuring the absolute best damage in Ancaria. Player 2's duty is to demand the best, never settle for less and be the biggest damage snob in Ancaria. You should expect to 1 hit kill everything! If you aren't then stamp your feet and demand your servants get their acts together and "gimme more!".
   

The two players will document their results via posts and occasional pictures of significance. They should save ALL of their Yellow and better drops in their storage chests to be compared at the end of the test. Level 20. Here are the restrictions for both players:

• ...
  
• No SB training
  ...
  

IMO the main drawback of the test and the reason why this will not work as you expect that Player 1's Survival Bonus will grow much faster. SB depends on time spent in combat.

 

If you want equal drop chances you have to adjust the SB value of Player 2 by "SB training" all the time (or at least at every level) to match with Player 1's SB.

[locolagarto 15]

lol. So many nah sayers! I am with you all the way, Schot!

 

Look peeps we know we can't have a scientific statistical analysis that fits all the requirements of a true mathematical comparison. And yes Sacred2 is littered with so many variables that a controlled test is almost impossible. but we still think we can run a simple test. 2 characters in as close to the same environment as we can control hunting the same types of monsters for a set count. What ever that count is will be determined by the preliminary results.

 

Schot is gonna create the 2 chars and post them for all to use in SP. 1 fast kill and 1 poor boy slow roll. do your own runs. follow our specs or use your own. in the end the results with be too close to tell or they will be a landslide. We should do multiple runs just to rule out as much dice roll as possible.

 

And then you mathematics guys can crunch all the numbers you want, a full chest of goods versus an empty one is just layman's mathematics

[tapir 0]

I didn't say it can't be tested I just said the way Schot defined the test-rules it will be unreliable (in my opinion). SB has so high impact on drops that it must not be ignored.

 

I started my own test but suspened it after 1000 kills seeing the difference between the two subject's SB. I'll post my results soon.

[Rotluchs 82]

I often enough got bad drops when I killed enemies pretty fast, as well as good drops when I killed them slowly

(not that I'm a cruel person who likes to see them suffer, my charbuilds just couldnt do faster )

 

ima vote for [*] the faster you kill an enemy, the more enemies you can kill, the more chances you get for any drops (good or bad)

 

..which isn't in the list..

 

 

..for how (or if) dropchances are altered for the same enemy/current attack if you'd kill it fast or slow,

ima gonna have to say, I don't know (and not gonna test to kill 1000s of mobs as 'slowly' as possible, sry )

 

 

edit:

My experience is a definite yes to speed of kill = more frequent drops.

 

Case in point is my 95 He that is strong but kills with Area of Effect and dot. she can kill 10 monsters at a time but takes longer to do it. My BFG is a one shot kill. she can kill 10 monsters about as fast as the high elf, but one at a time. both have about the same map revealed, and the HE actually has MF through her set items.

 

the seraphim can fill a chest full of sets. while the HE finds very few. I believe the difference is the speed of the kill.

 

does anyone remember the situation we had in sacred underworld, between patches, and especially those that introduced new sets?

 

each one had different dropchances. newly introduced sets sometimes had higher chances to drop until the next patch.

 

and the chances to find runes was different for specific character classes.

 

a battlemage would need more runes and in fact he also had higher rune-drop chances.

 

a gladiator would need less runes, he also had a lower chance to find runes.

 

I also remember a discussion we had on the beta-forum for the last patch 2.28, and a few patches before the final one...

 

there also was something in the patchnotes somewhere, that was proving it wasnt pure speculations anymore that various charclasses in the end had different chances to find runes, and sets. (daemoness for example)

 

 

what I'm trying to say is, maybe it's "no wonder" that a SE would find more sets than a HE, if she has a higher chance to find them, internally..

what sure is true, chars (should) have a higher chance to find runes for their own class, this is even in the non-encrypted gamefiles you can read out...

same ofc goes for sets (or more specific, sets from quests), and that becomes obvious, if you just do bloodforest quest runs in party a few times (5x seraphim, then try 5x Shadow Warrior.. )

 

edit#2:

 

found it, from UW patchnotes for 2.21:

Änderung: Der Runendrop für die Dämonin wurde nun angepasst.

(changes: runedrop for daemoness has been adjusted)

 

 

so first of all, you would need a duplicate of any charclass you test, same class same build same equip, everyhting..

 

try a exported char, and just make a copy of it.. then kill the same enemies thousands of time, first run fast, second run slow..

and even then I doubt this would have any meaningful results..

 

edit#3:

does anyone know what these entries could,should, or really do? (from Sacred 2 balance.txt)

  KillCountBase = 15,
 KillCountInc = 2,
 KillDropMulti = 1500,
 RareBonusDanger = 1000,
 RareMalusThreshold = 150,
 RareStart = 500,
 RuneAmountTotal = 12500,
 DropMaxRandomRare = 12,
 DropPowerupRare = 4,
 SkillMagicFindFactor = 200,

Edited March 25, 2010 by Rotluchs