Battlestar Galactica

[Katran 0]

Slow down Myles this has nothing to do with protecting some one from the truth.

What you are saying is all wrong here. It has nothing to do with protecting kids from the truth it has all to do with how parent feel when they watch things like that. I have friends that didnt care much about what they saw but now that they are parents they dont enjoy watching things like that. When I asked whats the problem it was quite simple. They said I know that my kid is vulnerable I know that its life could be in danger every day but that doesnt mean that they need to be reminded of this when they sit down to watch a TV show they love at night.

As for this episodes twist well come on they spend all that time showing us there love then the problems they had and in the end resolve them. And now in the last season what did they do? The easiest thing they could do. Kill Kelly in one episode. They made her a drug addict then in the one line the doctor said they destroy the hole thing they did in the last 2 seasons. "He broke your jaw on New Caprica and the next day you asked him to marry you?"

Simple said it was all crap. Lets see how we can save money. Lets kill Kelly. They could of spend so much time developing that part of the story and her character but they chose the road of killing fast and easy. Sure the thing could of ended tragic but they could of given it more attention.

Oh well what can we do. We love the show and we have to watch it die slowly and not go out with fire works.

[Genenut 8]

I know they are at war Myles. but there are other ways within thier art to get the msg across than to SHOW the violence against the smallest and most innocent of our world. There is far too much violence shown against these members of society on the evening news lately, I dont need or want it on my TV shows, something of fantasy and fiction thats supposed to be fun to watch. TV is a form of escapism.

 

kinda like in monster movies, the scarier ones dont show the monster because the unseen can be more effective in telling the story than showing everything.

 

I know this world is a scary place. I just waited and watched for 4 months as a family in minnesota waited for a new heart for thier 3 yr old. I hoped and prayed along with them and couldnt help but cry when this week he lost his battle while waiting for a new heart. He was very close in age to my youngest.

 

I just think a great writer could convey thier story without having to film the violence against the small children.

[myles 2]

I wasn't aiming at anybody in particular, that's not me. I simply argue the finer point. And you are not obligated to agree with me.

 

Feelings are irrational, and I'm saying exactly that. Sometimes we miss out on the bottom line, with good intention and feeling. I'm not disagreeing with anyone, its not fair for you to say I'm wrong or right.

 

I'm not talking about right or wrong here. I can be all wrong, but the point is still there.

 

First, censorship has always aimed at what we deemed violence, sinful, and all that, but ignore anything that might be equally harmful. I.e. We didn't actually censor harmful material as a society, but what is unpleasant.

 

Second, censorship has always been an ineffective method, and it will continue to be.

 

To me, the happy-ever-after variety shows are more unpleasant than those with realistic violence. And I'm only saying that. I think I'm allowed my own feeling.

 

And, tragedies steam from good feelings and intentions. Its a reminder, unpleasant reminder perhaps, but I'm not judging. Please don't take it that way.

[Schot 407]

Ah this is very interesting for sure. I can certainly appreciate and even relate to both sides of the coin. I think what we have here, and what's been aimed at, is a matter of artistic appreciation in a sense. I think it is safe to say that most of us have limits on what we can appreciate in all the various art forms. Be it music, painting, tv media etc.

 

I have my limits as well and in terms of what I see on tv it is usually to do with animals. In fact I just finished watching a movie in which a kitten was tortured for viewing pleasure. In the film I watched it from it did not show all the graphic detail involved, thank god, but even the mere suggestion of it made me very upset to the point I needed to turn away. I'm not a parent but I am a cat owner. So for you to share your feelings on the matter of BSG child violence I can certainly relate Genenut.

 

In regards to the first episode of BSG I was absolutely shocked. Not disgusted though. I took it as I think they hoped it would be taken in that they wanted to portray something in particular about the cylons. Perhaps that they are without any regard for human life at that moment. Nothing would have portrayed the message more clearly than the way they chose to do it and I did, and still do appreciate the method and the quality of the message. And to top it off it is only suggested and not shown. Though I have absolutely no doubt I would feel differently had I my own child.

 

Going back to limits I do believe it is a good thing to have them. I know for myself I could easily make a good sized list of what I think is just too much to show on tv. Children and animals among all I consider sacred.

 

 

Ok and I'm starting to yawn from that last episode but like you all I'm hopelessly in love it.

[Roby 0]

Genenut I too am a parent so I do see your point of view but I do think it is safe for you to see the end of the episode (I am a bit worried of being a 'spoiler' but we are talking about an episode that was aired days ago and this is a BSG discussion thread). I too wondered why they included that scene with the baby in the pilot. If it was to show the Cylons are ruthless I think it was more than required. Editing that scene out would have still left audiences with the view that Cylons are brutal. Besides, it doesn't really fit Number Six's character. Perhaps the idea behind the scene was that she was 'saving' the child from a nuclear death. When Number Six holds the baby she says "You're not going to have to cry much longer" which I assume was a reference to the nuclear attack soon to come (which doesn't wash since, being in the city, the death would have been swift and without the parents pain of this event).

 

Now, on the episode in question, remember that Cally is not stable and as Dr. Cottle states "Fatigue and antidepressants can make a hell of a paranoia cocktail". Add to this the fact she has just discovered her husband is a Cylon meaning their baby is half Cylon. This together may 'explain' her actions. Also remember, as we have seen in past episodes, 'Skinjobs' usually covet babies of such unions. At this point, since we do not know what the rest of the plot will be, it is hard to judge if the scene was required. But, as I said, I feel it is safe for you to watch it to the end.

[Roby 0]

Any theories on who is the last Humanoid Cylon is? Who is the last of The Five?

 

As a basis in my search I am using the scene in Razor when the hybrid tells William Adama: "Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves, the pain of that revelation, bringing true clarity. And amidst confusion, he will find her... Enemies brought together by the apostle, enemies now joined as one. The way forward, once impenetrable, yet inevitable. And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light, hungry for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering. I can see them all, the seven, now six self-described machines who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching, the agony of the one splintering into many. And then they will join in the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel. Not an end, but a beginning."

 

In particular I'm picking up on the phrase "And the fifth, though still in the shadow yet clawing for the light, hungry for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

 

Who could this be referring too? My current theory I'm working on (I'm keeping the privilege to change my mind) is Petty Officer Anastasia Dualla.

 

There are some interesting moments involving Dualla. In the episode "Final Cut" Dualla is interviewed by D'Anna Biers (later discovered to be Number Three). The interview is shown in two parts. First at the beginning of the episode:

 

D'Anna: "How did your family respond."

Dualla: "My Dad went crazy when I enlisted. He thought the military was a joke. Refuge for emotional cripples and patriotic fools."

D'Anna:"But you signed up anyway"

Dualla:"I guess I just wanted to believe in something"

 

Later it is continued during a Cylon attack:

 

D'Anna: "Did you ever come to terms with your Dad?"

Dualla: "I wouldn't let him. The last time we talked it got... heated. I told him I never wanted to see him again. Three weeks later the Cylons attacked"

 

We do not know much more about her past except she is a Sagittaron, a people that are highly religious. But, she doesn't share their same religious views as is shown in the episode "The Woman King" where Sagittarion refugees on Galactica get sick with Mellorak sickness. Dee (Dualla), unlike other Sagittarons that do not believe in medicine, requests the vaccine.

 

Is her reference to 'Dad' meant to be more symbolic in her interview? Isn't it strange that a woman born on a planet of highly religious people seeks out the military to "believe in something"? There seems like a tail behind a child of a religious pacifist society choosing the military as her vocation.

 

Also, "Anastasia" is the feminine form of "Anastasius", which means "Resurrection" in ancient Greek. Her last name, Dualla, is also interesting. Dualla is the name of a people (tribe) in West Africa known for racial purity to the point where impure children were killed at birth (http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/DRO_ECG/DUALLA.html). Dualla may also be derived from the Latin word Dualis (English Dual) of which one definition is "having a double character or nature" (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dual).

 

Ok, not much to go on but she is a relatively minor character ("still in the shadow") that has had some interesting moments and was even married to Apollo. Minor enough that not many people think about her, but an important enough character that most know who she is.

 

An aside: Also in Razor the hybrid tells Kendra Shaw "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end, she is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death; they must not follow her." She is killed before she is able to relay the message back to the Galactica.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Roby

[Genenut 8]

my thoughts are maybe gaius baltar... he certainly seems to be trying to redeem himself. He was willing to die for the child who had menegitis.

[myles 2]

There is many possibility, and we cannot even strictly dismiss most of the big guns.

 

In "Crossroad pt.2", the vision is shared by Six, Sharon (Athena), and Roslin. Everything happened so fast in the two parts crossroad, but suspicious don't you think? To make matters worse, it is unclear if anyone of them know the other two have had the same vision. Note that thus far in the series, only female cylons are granted vision of any sort. Interesting isn't it?

 

I think focusing on Number three would be the way to flush out the final, if its possible. She is the only one who saw the final five, in "The eye of Jupiter. She said this to the light, "You... forgive me... I had no idea." So its safe to say that she has met this said person before, and she has done something. She also said to Baltar that he was right, so Baltar actually holds the key to the final as well, though not realizing it himself.

 

That would make Dualla, Gaeta, and Starbuck fair game. Even Dr Cottle , Cally, and Helo, although they would be unlikely candidates.

 

The two Adama are probably out, it would be hard to make it plausible anyway. The Adama family history has been readily established. Although in "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down", Leoben (number two) did say that Adama is cylon. But which? Still, unless they introduce Carolanne (Lee's mother), there would be some tough explaining to do.

 

Starbuck is unlikely too I think. Her mother, Socrata Thrace, appeared in "Fresh and Bone". It was mentioned that Starbuck's dad was a pianist as well, I don't remember which episode. Edit: yay found it, "Valley of Darkness" To be fair though, Starbuck was the only one who wasn't onboard when the music awakened four of the Final Five. And she is supposed to be dead.

 

I personally think that Baltar is out of the run too. His own cylon test excluded him from being Cylon, when it correctly pinpointed sharon (boomer) as one. Baltar also had a complete background and family history.

 

In "Torn", Baltar gone on to the dying cylon basestar to investigate a viral plague. All cylons died, he came out fine. Also in "Torn", Caprica-Six (real, not the virtual) took Baltar on a tour of the cylon basestar, and showed him the projection skill, which enables cylon to change the interior design as desired. Baltar could not do it.

 

To me, that leaves Gaeta and Dualla. I discounted Dualla because she mentioned her father too in "Final Cut".

 

So my choice is the all mysterious Gaeta. He is the only one that I can't find any particular reason to think he is not a cylon.

[Katran 0]

Oh man there are so many choses about this one. One thing I cant get pass by from the very first episode[or TV movie] the fact how Baltar stays alive. We see the nuck go off blasting a all int path even in baltars house. And then we see him unharmed when he gets on the raptor. Very strange still cant pass the thing how he survived that shock wave. Plus it is in every season opening.

[Roby 0]

Myles,

 

Do you believe that Saul Tigh is a Humanoid Cylon (just checking because some question if the four revealed are all Cylons)? If so, your test of who is and is not a Cylon based on having a past (family etc) may not be valid. Colonel Tigh has a history that predates the first Cylon war (he was in the military and fought against the Cylons then just like Admiral Adama). You often hear how they Humanoid Cylons were 'sleeper agents' who were always Cylons that one day 'wake up'. But, Saul's case puts that into question. So, the fact that someone has a 'past' doesn't seem to exclude them from being a Cylon. That said, I will admit Gaeta is one of the others on my list. I just can't find the same 'interesting' moments as I did with Dualla.

 

 

I forgot to mention that mentioned and it is one other incident from the show I kept in mind in this quest. When, as you say, D'Anna (Number Three) sees the Final Five (Season 3, Episode 12: 'Rapture') goes up to one of them and says "You. Forgive me I... I had no idea". Who would she be talking about? Who would she have to forgive? I'll admit that my first guess was Saul after what she did in "Final Cut" (showing the Colonel as an ill tempered drunk) but maybe it was for Dualla who was her guide during her visit on Galactica. I can not imagine how it could be for any of the other Known Four.

 

Baltar doesn't seem a fit for many of the reasons Myles gave and more. His character is special for sure. I feel he portrays the human version of a Cylon (not a Humanoid Cylon or at least the 'aware' ones like Number Five). He doesn't believe in gods and religion; is very pragmatic and logical like a machine; and only thinks about himself. But as the show evolves so does he and he becomes more human. This is in contrast to how the Cylons are portrayed as going from machine to becoming, well, human.

[myles 2]

Oh but it does. Unless the memories are fake or implanted, you cannot be a final five if you have a family background. Half Cylon maybe. They made a huge fuss about the fact that Cylon cannot reproduce like human, until Sharon (Athena).

 

So unless new details come about or old details are invalidated, having a biological father or mother absolutely exclude anyone from being a final five, or more correctly the "original five".

 

Colonel Tigh had a history absolutely, but no one alive can verify or contradict his record, not even commander Adama. Which put him in a very interesting position.

 

Of course just having a history is not a complete safeguard, you are right. But I think it is the best measure given to us.

[Genenut 8]

OMG ... six .... and six ...

 

And I still think baltar is something other than 100% human ...

[Schot 407]

Here's a lil bit of info to get everyone up to speed on the guessing game. Ron Moore has given out some hints as to the final Cylon which has been on the net from an interview with him for quite some time.

 

The below blurb is quoted from Ron Moore which will cancel out some characters from the list of "final Cylon" candidates:

 

MR: Just so I understand what I think you told EW for the story that went with the photo, none of the people in that photo is the final Cylon, right?

 

RDM: Yeah. I said that. I probably shouldn’t have said that [laughs] but I have said that. So, yeah [that is the case, the final Cylon is not any of the people in the photo].

The scoop from Ron Moore

 

 

 

Below is a Flash interactive image of the BSG last supper which gives tidbit hints of things to come albeit very minor hints. Use the scroller at the bottom of image to see other parts of it. Click on the numbers to read more.

 

 

Happy guessing.

[Genenut 8]

Then I can only assume Gaius is the same as Starbuck what ever she is... Both appeared to die and yet both are back. cant be entirely normal human.

[Katran 0]

Great find Schot. But to tell you the truth and I write this after seeing episode 4 I am beyond caring. I watch the show just to see the end and I dont find any joy in it anymore. Hope I will see some nice space battle and thats all. At this point I am SO SO beyond interest as to how they will resolve this final season of the show.

 

P.S.: Cant wait to watch the next episode of The Tudors at list there love, betrayal, religion make a lot more sense!

[myles 2]

Ron Moore is not responsible for photo shoot, nor did he show up on most of them. So it is highly doubtful that the promo photos have any significant meaning themselves.

 

Anyway, Moore is known to joke and dance around, so I don't like to guess what he means and does not mean.

[Schot 407]

Myles,

 

Do you believe that Saul Tigh is a Humanoid Cylon (just checking because some question if the four revealed are all Cylons)? If so, your test of who is and is not a Cylon based on having a past (family etc) may not be valid. Colonel Tigh has a history that predates the first Cylon war (he was in the military and fought against the Cylons then just like Admiral Adama). You often hear how they Humanoid Cylons were 'sleeper agents' who were always Cylons that one day 'wake up'. But, Saul's case puts that into question. So, the fact that someone has a 'past' doesn't seem to exclude them from being a Cylon. That said, I will admit Gaeta is one of the others on my list. I just can't find the same 'interesting' moments as I did with Dualla.

 

 

I forgot to mention that mentioned and it is one other incident from the show I kept in mind in this quest. When, as you say, D'Anna (Number Three) sees the Final Five (Season 3, Episode 12: 'Rapture') goes up to one of them and says "You. Forgive me I... I had no idea". Who would she be talking about? Who would she have to forgive? I'll admit that my first guess was Saul after what she did in "Final Cut" (showing the Colonel as an ill tempered drunk) but maybe it was for Dualla who was her guide during her visit on Galactica. I can not imagine how it could be for any of the other Known Four.

 

Baltar doesn't seem a fit for many of the reasons Myles gave and more. His character is special for sure. I feel he portrays the human version of a Cylon (not a Humanoid Cylon or at least the 'aware' ones like Number Five). He doesn't believe in gods and religion; is very pragmatic and logical like a machine; and only thinks about himself. But as the show evolves so does he and he becomes more human. This is in contrast to how the Cylons are portrayed as going from machine to becoming, well, human.

 

 

 

I like your take on Dualla Roby if only for her name, heh. Though as others have said I think choosing her as the fifth Cylon could be anti-climactic. Then again... They could spin her out in so many ways. Something that has been on my mind a lot is; why did the four "wake up" when they did? What caused them to activate? It would seem the Cylon's had no part of it so then what, or better still who, could have made the final 4 become aware? More and more I'm getting the feeling that the final Cylon has been awake for a long time. Possibly right from the beginning and that just maybe the fifth Cylon was the one who awoke the 4. Could it be that the 5th Cylon has been orchestrating for quite some time now? As for the who... I just can't even attempt a guess. I'm kiiind of thinking that Zarek could be.

 

 

I know how you feel Katran. I'm having a hard time keeping the BSG faith. It looks as though BSG is still developing various plot lines. There were a lot of lines started in this last episode and not very many conclusions. As a viewer I think it kind of frustrates me when there are more questions than answers and in the past 4 episodes there simply hasn't been enough answers for me to take pleasure from. I'm holding out for a big climactic collision of plat lines though!

 

That seems to reason Genenut about Gaius and Starbuck being of the same kind so to speak. Hard to say which will be the savior and which will be the villain at this point. They're just both crazy, haha. Seeing how each unravels will certainly be interesting for me.

 

 

Actually myles, according to an interview he did play a big part of that promo shoot. The scoop from Ron Moore.

 

 

MR: You have to know that the EW “Last Supper” photo of the Season 4 cast has been analyzed to death.

 

RDM: I know. As soon as they said that’s what they wanted to do, I said, “Oh, that’s genius.” I was on the phone, “Let’s put him here, her here,” I spun out all these things. It was a lot of fun.

 

Lastsupper MR: That was one question I had – you were the maestro orchestrating where people were and what they were doing, right? Everything in the photo is intentional, right?

 

RDM: Mostly. I wasn’t on the set. They pitched me the idea on the phone, and asked if I had any ideas of what to do. I said, OK, yeah, let’s do this. I spun out the basic format and I think they embroidered a little on that when they were on the set.

 

 

 

Granted, Moore certainly does like his BSG secrets so I guess only time will truly tell.

[Katran 0]

Oh heres one for you. What about Novacek. A good actor played him we did see him only in one episode and well he has lot more to be developed as a character. We dont know even what he has been up to.

[myles 2]

D'Anna (Number Three) is billed for this season. *hint*

 

Of course it might be a lot of things. But if she does wake up, say Six wants her in on the civil war, things will blow up really fast.

[Roby 0]

This series does have a major religious theme. The war with the machine versus man storyline is only a carrier for a larger message. Remember the first scene at the start of the series (in the pilot) where, on a remote space station setup for Humans and Cylons to have diplomatic relations, Number Six comes up to the Human representative and says "Are you alive?". When he responds with "Yes" she says "Prove it" and kisses him and the war begins with the space station being destroyed. These are the first lines spoken in the show. Seems she is more interested in what it is to be human and alive than conquering the human race.

 

A subset of Cylons are on a spiritual journey (such as Number Three and Six). The religious undertone continues in the opening theme (which is usually about 5 minutes into the episode). The words sung is the Hindu Gayatri Mantra which goes as follows:

 

ॐ भूर्भुव: स्व: तत्सवितुर्वरेन्यं । भर्गो देवस्य धीमहि, धीयो यो न: प्रचोदयात् ।।

 

oṃ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ

tat savitur vareṇyaṃ

bhargo devasya dhīmahi

dhiyo yo naḥ prachodayāt

 

or

 

Aum bhoor bhuwah swaha

tat savitur varenyam

bhargo devasaya dheemahi

dhiyo yo naha prachodayat

 

A sample can be heard here (it is meant to be repeated over and over): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSwQ6FomhqQ

Compare it to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-gvgPEtv4g...feature=related

[listen to them as you read the words above]

 

The Gayatri Mantra is the main mantra in Hinduism and its meaning is "May the Almighty God illuminate our intellect to lead us along the righteous path".

 

An English translation of the lines above is:

 

Oh God! Thou art the Giver of Life,

Remover of pain and sorrow,

The Bestower of happiness,

Oh! Creator of the Universe,

May we receive thy supreme sin-destroying light,

May Thou guide our intellect in the right direction.

 

Note that Hinduism is the oldest religion still practiced today.

 

It seems the civil war that people are foreseeing is more of a religious war that will split both Cylons and Humans into two (or three) sides with one group being represented by both Cylons and Humans that believe in one God. Remember that currently the Colonials do not believe in one God but in many. Will it be the subset of Human Cylons (such as Number Six and Number Three) that will be the spark in humanity creating a single Supreme God (as in Hinduism) perhaps with the other Gods/Goddesses being helpers to the Supreme God? Hindus also believe in reincarnation which seems similar to how the Humanoid Cylons are reborn after they die.

 

Makes me wonder what Earth they will finally reach. Will they find Earth as we know it today or arrive sometime thousands of years ago? Are we products of Human and Cylon mating? I'm not sure because in Epiphanies (Season 2 Episode 13) it is stated that the Sharon's baby has no antigens which is different from you and I today.

 

But, right now we have two Humanoid/Cylon hybrids. The first is Hera Agathon, daughter of (Human) Karl "Helo" Agathon and (Cylon) Sharon "Athena" Agathon (also known as Number Eight). The other is Nicholas Tyrol, the son of Galen (a Cylon) and Cally Tyrol. Will they become Adam and Eve?

 

Ok, I will admit I have put together quite a tale. Just proof that I need a life. I should add that I'm not as bored of the series since I came in late and watched most of them back-to-back but there does seem to be a lot of filler. This seems to be the curse of any series. Even Charles Dickens' "Great Expectations" which was serialized in his periodical "All the Year Round" seems, to me, to have a lot of filler.

Edited April 30, 2008 by Roby

[Katran 0]

So I have to say that for me a t list BSG S4 is finally starting to take off. It took them some 7 episodes but what can you do better late then ever. Shame it will be going on a break after episode 10.

 

P.S.: I still dont like the way its going but at list its more interesting to watch.

[myles 2]

I agree that it is turning in an unsatisfying direction.

 

Just when the cylon can die, they just keep going... with shading reasons and what not. Surely at least one of them will not die by a single gunshot you would think. Nope one pop one goes.

 

One of the eight had a spleen wound, the bladder might have gone with it, but that need not be a kill wound under normal circumstances.

 

Anyway, its going somewhere at least.

[kunstler 0]

BSG was my favourit TV series as I was kid, it aired on Sundays at five in our country my my parents could not believed that I was home - voluntarily - in the middle of the day instead of being outside playing with my buddies.

 

They started to show the first episodes of the new BSG few months ago ... but I was lucky before that .... I have managed to get my hands on complete season I, II and III while I was in Indonesia on a honeymoon.

stories and characters are splendid and producers have managed to pack everyday problems into a "space" package.

 

and the canadian robo girl (tricia helfer) is a bomb

[stubbie 21]

Ugh!!..........its all getting too confusing now (season 4 ep 7)

 

Wheres a walkthrough when you need one!

 

stubbs

[bhj 24]

the next best thing