Androdion 884 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 (edited) So I was reading through Chattius' Die Waffenmeisterin guide and thinking about the "Chance that opponents cannot evade attacks" (COCE) and "Opponent's chance to evade" (OCE). I was trying out some socketed jewellery to better hit with my HE and something weird happened. Though I have a hit chance of more than 100% for enemies (sometimes more than 200%) I still miss ranged shots. In fact I miss a lot of ranged shots despite having a Bull's Eye equipped and the hit chance being even higher than with the melee weapon. Why is that? A few other questions would be: 1 - Ideally how high should the values be for COCE and OCE for them to be optimal? 2 - Does a 100% hit chance equates always hitting enemies or is it only valid for melee? If so how do I improve the hit chance for ranged hits? 3 - Is COCE a secondary effect that only triggers after hitting an enemy the first time? If so how is it possible to always hit home in order to trigger the effect? 4 - Is it worthwhile getting COCE to 100%? I'm just a bit confused right now, I admit. I've read a lot of info on the matter and the numbers on-screen are making it hard for me to understand, so if any kind soul would be willing to further explain these modifiers I'd appreciate it. PS: How does hit chance correlate with weapon based CAs or hybrid CAs (Magic Coup), I.e. is all of the above just valid for left clicks or for right clicks as well? Edited October 22, 2016 by Androdion Link to comment
chattius 2,531 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 As in real life: you have a 100% chance to hit the point you aim for. But if the target moves too much while the bullet is in the air you miss. Try out a dryad with a blowpipe. Blowpipes hits are instant. 1 Link to comment
Flix 5,116 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 This was my first thought as well. Arrows can miss just because they literally miss if the enemy moves. Some enemies also have a chance to block ranged as a creature bonus. It might help to compare with a different ranged weapon like blowpipe or throwing weapon and see if you get similar results. Link to comment
Androdion 884 Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 Didn't even think about chance to block on enemies, it really was a tiring week. I've tried it out with a shuriken and an energy gun and they both yield similar results to the bow while I was targeting Garema in the Jungle region, so I guess it's probably more related to the enemy type rather than the hit chance. In melee it doesn't happen so I figure it's like you say Flix, a projectile protection of some kind. Sometimes I forget that there are so many variables in this game that you can't really control everything. I don't have any working Dryad right now so I can't test it with blowpipes, though I will in the future. As in real life: you have a 100% chance to hit the point you aim for. But if the target moves too much while the bullet is in the air you miss. Is this valid for CAs as well? So what kind of values do you guys think would be best for an all around solution to always have over 100% chance to hit? Would something like 60% OCE+40% COCE suffice? Because over 60-65% in OCE the diminishing returns get really taxative to even try and put it higher, and getting more than 40% in COCE demands a lot of socketing. Ideally would it be enough in most cases to cover the odds? My idea is to try and abuse regen per hit as much as possible, like on Chattius guide where he mentioned that a 100% hit chance is needed in order to recharge your CAs with left click attacks. In a melee HE's case though, for instance, the idea is to always hit home with Magic Coup so if it fails to hit home I'm left stranded with no attacking possibilities. If I can have a 100% hit chance I can then eat 200 Magic Coup runes for higher damage and compensate the regen time with RPH, but if the HE then fails an attack I'm left stranded with something like 3-4 seconds of delay. And that is for each failed hit so the DPS will crawl. Basically the point was to circumvent that situation and optimize it as much as possible, though I now see that most likely not every angle can be covered. Link to comment
chattius 2,531 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Shurikens are even worse than bows. They do a parabolic curve and the check for hit counts the height above ground from flying enemies in. Ranged weapons and RPH are different to melee. The RPH effect is as the name says on hit. Instant with melee and blowpipe but for a bow the flight time of the arrow often allows a normal shot before the CA shot hits. It might help to socket cold as a damage type into a bow. The enemies will be slowed with a bit of luck so the follow up shots have a better chance to hit because of a more stationary target. 1 Link to comment
Androdion 884 Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 Yeah, I don't like shurikens either. Tried Poison Star a few times in the past and never really liked how often it'd miss. It's cool because it allows for a shield on the right hand but nevertheless I don't think it really pays off in the end as even bows kill faster (and from a better distance). Socketing ice crystals to slow down enemies is a nice idea, though it won't work with Magic Coup in this particular case. Nevertheless it should work perfectly fine with left click attacks, thanks for the tip. You're right with your assessment of RPH in melee vs ranged, fly time is something that gets accounted for and I've noticed it a lot of times with bows. But it's part of the predicament of playing melee with a non-melee class though when doing MC HE. Gladly I can compensate with Shadow Step modified for Explosion. Hurra, instant escape/damage/stun effect on enemies. 1 Link to comment
desm 329 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Blowpipes are deadly, I looove them. 1 Link to comment
Daniat 57 Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 I have a 119stormite HE equiped with arnum's pathfinder(legendary bow) and adorments of ancestors set socketed to increase chance to hit etc, but problem is the low base attack value, only 341, it was almost impossible to hit a boss with magic coup when my chance to hit is only 9% and I increase this chance with (oce coce or attack value%) via sockets, it will just raise to 40% which is still pretty low my 119he has only 341 attack with chance to hit 9% and magic coup 75,5, I land a sucessful hit every 5-8 shots my 59 polearm seraphim has 1403 attack value and 101% chance to hit so I suggest you to pick ranged weapons as skill (not only to increase attack value, also attack speed) and target focus mod for magic coup I am playing a delphic he (102) with magic staves skill, attack value 1189 and magic coup 65, and I miss very few hits even against bosses 1 Link to comment
Androdion 884 Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 It's funny that you mention hitting bosses because as of the time of the OP, when I socketed OCE/COCE jewellery to raise the numbers to around 70/40% in both values, I went after Krall and I had well over 100% hit chance with both melee and ranged weapons. And I don't use any kind of bonus to the attack value nor weapon skills. In my opinion weapon skills on a melee HE are a waste of a skill you can make better use of. Plus I don't really use ranged weapons on high level enemies, just on the regular mobs when I travel back and forth with my special mount, hitting from a distance. Out of curiosity what skill set do you use on the Delphic HE? Link to comment
Daniat 57 Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) well im just telling what happens with my two builds stormite level 119 and delhpic 102 (now 103 xD) I have a complete guide of my single aspect delhpic build here: http://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?/topic/22371-single-aspect-delphic-he-ice-blood-hc/ I chose magic staffs instead EP, and I was lucky enough to find two pieces of glimborins mutation set, one in orc cave (+100 runs) the other vs a Nameless Guardian btw two weeks ago I found my very 3rd mutation set item, I was playing a 3aspect melee TG (level 61) and a temple guardian champ generated in the spawner dropped draco's mutation gloves, enough reason to play again with DM Edited October 23, 2016 by Daniat 1 Link to comment
gogoblender 3,071 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Yeah, I don't like shurikens either. Tried Poison Star a few times in the past and never really liked how often it'd miss. It's cool because it allows for a shield on the right hand but nevertheless I don't think it really pays off in the end as even bows kill faster (and from a better distance). Socketing ice crystals to slow down enemies is a nice idea, though it won't work with Magic Coup in this particular case. Nevertheless it should work perfectly fine with left click attacks, thanks for the tip. You're right with your assessment of RPH in melee vs ranged, fly time is something that gets accounted for and I've noticed it a lot of times with bows. But it's part of the predicament of playing melee with a non-melee class though when doing MC HE. Gladly I can compensate with Shadow Step modified for Explosion. Hurra, instant escape/damage/stun effect on enemies. I did find shurikens particularly useful against turtles on turtle island however. The nija stars have so many item mods, and one of them can help with the reflection that does put up against massive strikes against them...I found this useful as using the blowpipe against turtles got me nearly killed and redlined a few times on the way up to niobium...switching to shurikens in this area against them worked perfectly: Ancarian Geographic Presents: Attack of the Killer Turtles!!! gogo Link to comment
Androdion 884 Posted October 24, 2016 Author Share Posted October 24, 2016 (edited) Ha ha, no problem mate. That's a nice guide right there. I remember reading a guide in that section that mentioned using Shadow Step as an offensive spell, can't recall if it was yours or a variation, but the guy also had a similar playing style and all attributes into INT. Maybe it was yours but I can't tell for sure. Anyway, it was because of that guide that I eventually ended up using SS like that, except my main attack force is MC (I don't even use Cobalt Strike since I do MC in melee and ranged) and I use the Mystic Stormite skills to enhance Crystal Skin since my main focus is survivability and melee endurance. I'm not sure if you're aware but the Mage of the Spectrum set also gives you "+% LL", the same as Adornment of the Ancestors, except it gives you a much bigger boost in terms of armour (of the several types actually). I first used AOTA but then switched to MOTS because it pays off much more in terms of armour. I don't use Mutation sets because I believe they make the game too unbalanced. Hell, with a regular set and a dedicated shopper socketing more than "+50 All Skills" already makes the build run godly so that's that. By the way, you can use a dedicated smith as well to better socket stuff in lower level sockets. Try this guide I wrote: http://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?/topic/22809-sacred-2-character-editor-guide-how-to-modify-save-games-without-scripting/ @Gogo - I really wanted to like shurikens because you know, ranged+shield+nice modifiers, but it just didn't suit my playing style very well. And the curve the projectiles do like Chattius mentioned makes it all the more difficult to use for me. But yeah, like most items in the game they are useful in specific situations. Edited October 24, 2016 by Androdion Link to comment
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