My experience per turtle dropped just by me leveling up?

[chattius 2,526]

Sacred2 is designed so complex that smart people give up understanding and just play.

 

And then there area idiots like me who try to understand the math's involved ...

[gogoblender 3,070]

I know!

lol, I was thinking this was going to be easy...and we'd have a flat graph to work with, but noooooo...

course it couldn't be easy, couldn't be friendly...

 

just...has to be...

 

Sacred

 

 

gogo

 

p.s. Thank god it's friday

[Woody 24]

*hug for gogo*

 

[tapir 0]

Got a few numbers at level 132->133 change.

 

gharema warrior: 10953 -> 10805 (98,65%)

black panther: 8464 -> 8349 (98,64%)

(mentor pots, ~16% experience from gear, four players on the server)

 

I'll track it until level 151 if I dont forget.

[locolagarto 15]

Got a few numbers at level 132->133 change.

 

gharema warrior: 10953 -> 10805 (98,65%)

black panther: 8464 -> 8349 (98,64%)

(mentor pots, ~16% experience from gear, four players on the server)

 

I'll track it until level 151 if I dont forget.

 

So the percentages that Dragon Brother found are per level. and the percentage changes at the 25 level breakpoints.

[essjayehm 58]

Sacred2 is designed so complex that smart people give up understanding and just play.

 

Heh... so true! I figure that's what I'll be doing for my next character. No "perfect" planning, number crunching, just playing...

 

Of course, I'll probably learn more doing this than all the testing, etc that I've done in the past 6 months

 

Obviously, I do not have any need to get a character to level 200, YET. Maybe in the future if I want to forge high-level jewels into low-level equipment, but for now, Niob-shopping with my toons is overpowered enough.

[colif 36]

Almost glad I am too stupid to understand the numbers and just work it out as I go.

 

Sounds like a mod would be ideal for this, to alter the amount reduced each level, as not everyone has the time to get to 200 (though if I had stuck to 1 character, I might be close by now). It probably wouldn't work in closed though, but what does it matter what people do to themselves in Single player.

[locolagarto 15]

Almost glad I am too stupid to understand the numbers and just work it out as I go.

 

Sounds like a mod would be ideal for this, to alter the amount reduced each level, as not everyone has the time to get to 200 (though if I had stuck to 1 character, I might be close by now). It probably wouldn't work in closed though, but what does it matter what people do to themselves in Single player.

This 1 is easy. These values are in the balance.text file.

[Dragon Brother 619]

Got a few numbers at level 132->133 change.

 

gharema warrior: 10953 -> 10805 (98,65%)

black panther: 8464 -> 8349 (98,64%)

(mentor pots, ~16% experience from gear, four players on the server)

 

I'll track it until level 151 if I dont forget.

 

So the percentages that Dragon Brother found are per level. and the percentage changes at the 25 level breakpoints.

 

Yeah, so it looks like chattius had that right...now I wonder how the breakpoints work...if it changes it based on every level or just from then on...we really need the values from level 124 and level 125 to know I guess.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Dragon Brother

[Schot 407]

Don't forget that enemy levels are also a factor. *runs away*

[Dragon Brother 619]

Don't forget that enemy levels are also a factor. *runs away*

 

Lol...yeah...how bout we just leave it at the fact that, experience decreases from level 100 onwards, and decreases by a larger factor every 25 levels. And you can still model the penalty applied to the experience since its reduced to 98.5% of the previous base each level up to 125 and then 98% and so on...meaning...give me 5mins in excel and gogo gets his graph...

 

EDIT: Ok, well, gogo, here is your graph, its actually amazing how large the penalty becomes by level 200, the experience is reduced to ~4.76% of its original value. But, anyway, the graph:

 

So it is getting smaller. What's changing... base experience values of monsters is actually shrinking?

 

O.gif

 

gogo

 

Yes, thats exactly it, base experience gets a penalty applied each level with a large increase due to a new factor after ever 25 levels.

 

From these lines in the balance.txt file:

 ExpLS100 = 985,
ExpLS125 = 980,
ExpLS150 = 975,
ExpLS175 = 970

I think it decreases to 98.5% of max at level 100, 98% at level 125, 97.5% at level 150 and 97% at level 175...I think anyway 1smile.gif

I think it's calculated some other way. IIRC I had almost 10% drop from level 125 to 126. And gogo's numbers: 11462->11580: 7,7% decrease.

This picture shows the large jump at those break points you mentioned very clearly And, again it shows proof of something chattius either assumed or guessed intuitively, but for those large break points you have to have the experience multiplier changes..so its 0.98^25, then 0.975^50 and 0.97^75 at the breakpoints. Anyway, this doesnt give any guesses to what the experience will actually be, its just a way of visualising how I assume the base experience reduces each level before monster levels and number of people in the server and the such effect it.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Dragon Brother

[locolagarto 15]

Don't forget that enemy levels are also a factor. *runs away*

 

Lol...yeah...how bout we just leave it at the fact that, experience decreases from level 100 onwards, and decreases by a larger factor every 25 levels. And you can still model the penalty applied to the experience since its reduced to 98.5% of the previous base each level up to 125 and then 98% and so on...meaning...give me 5mins in excel and gogo gets his graph...

 

EDIT: Ok, well, gogo, here is your graph, its actually amazing how large the penalty becomes by level 200, the experience is reduced to ~4.76% of its original value. But, anyway, the graph:

 

So it is getting smaller. What's changing... base experience values of monsters is actually shrinking?

 

O.gif

 

gogo

 

Yes, thats exactly it, base experience gets a penalty applied each level with a large increase due to a new factor after ever 25 levels.

 

From these lines in the balance.txt file:

 ExpLS100 = 985,
ExpLS125 = 980,
ExpLS150 = 975,
ExpLS175 = 970

I think it decreases to 98.5% of max at level 100, 98% at level 125, 97.5% at level 150 and 97% at level 175...I think anyway 1smile.gif

I think it's calculated some other way. IIRC I had almost 10% drop from level 125 to 126. And gogo's numbers: 11462->11580: 7,7% decrease.

This picture shows the large jump at those break points you mentioned very clearly And, again it shows proof of something chattius either assumed or guessed intuitively, but for those large break points you have to have the experience multiplier changes..so its 0.98^25, then 0.975^50 and 0.97^75 at the breakpoints. Anyway, this doesnt give any guesses to what the experience will actually be, its just a way of visualising how I assume the base experience reduces each level before monster levels and number of people in the server and the such effect it.

 

That graph is quite dramatic Dragon. Did you take the percentage at each level off of the level 100 base, or off the previous level?

 

Assuming at level 100 you can get 10,000 XP and level 101 is would be 9,850 and at level 102 9,702 ect.. wow that is very dramatic. hopefully the monsters level continues to increase and off set some of this loss in xp. That explains why I need +102% xp per kill to get 7,000 xp from a monster with a mentor pot at level 154 with monsters at level 179

[Dragon Brother 619]

That graph is quite dramatic Dragon. Did you take the percentage at each level off of the level 100 base, or off the previous level?

 

Assuming at level 100 you can get 10,000 XP and level 101 is would be 9,850 and at level 102 9,702 ect.. wow that is very dramatic. hopefully the monsters level continues to increase and off set some of this loss in xp. That explains why I need +102% xp per kill to get 7,000 xp from a monster with a mentor pot at level 154 with monsters at level 179

 

Yeah, what you said there, 98.5% off, then another 98.5% off and so on...ie 98.5*98.5*... for however many levels you make until you get to the next breakpoints, at which time all those 98.5% are replaced with 98% so after level 125 it goes from base*0.985^25 to base*0.980^25 and the same things at 150 and 175, which explains the large differences people notice.

[Slevin 10]

The graph corresponds with the experiences I did.

Good work Dragon Brother

[Barristan 14]

ugh

 

why can't we all just play something dumb and easy

 

like diablo

 

gogo

 

Hrmm.... well... IF you'd do that with a melee toon, it would even be harder to reach 99 (cap). Up to patch 1.13 The Chaos Sanctuary and The worldstone Chambers were certain death for any melee toon. Quite an unfriendly curse from OK (Oblivion Knights). They would cast Iron Maiden, originally a Necromancer curse, causing you to relect your high end Hell damage upon yourself. First hit you landed killed your toon. With patch 1.13, you can actually play melee now.

 

Bit off topic eh

 

Greetz

[gogoblender 3,070]

This is beautiful. I'm surprised and delighted with the graph. This is great work, and the entire thread has become a wonderful read with a well-earned and hard-worked for surprise... The Graph!

 

Beautiful work Dragon Brother

 

+++

 

This is a great thread reagarding the graph's discovery... would you be able to perhaps write up a guide or quality reference explanation of the graphs, what it means reference for the community?

 

We can put the new explanation in the General Sacred 2 Guides section and perhaps even add it to the Wiki on the Experience page?

 

SacredWiki's skimpy page on experience

 

 

gogo

[chattius 2,526]

I just read into this thread again after weekend to see if people did some experience values so I could try out some maths, ...

And dragonbrother has a graph already... an the graph clearly shows the jumps.

 

So my attempts to type powers as ** to find out 3 posts later that the forum allows ^superscript were not as useless as I thought

 

We planed a bicycle tour and some other stuff for mother's day and then my wife was called to hospital for an emergency (she was on standby this weekend). So we weren't playing but did a visit to my parents at Wetzlar and did some walking and climbing in a beech forest:

 

 

So I had no time to do my own tests. Hope we can do the tour at the holiday at thursday. My wife and me are both not on standby.

Edited May 10, 2010 by chattius

[Dragon Brother 619]

And dragonbrother has a graph already... an the graph clearly shows the jumps.

 

So my attempts to type powers as ** to find out 3 posts later that the forum allows ^superscript were not as useless as I thought

 

Yeah, I did make a graph All thanks to you mentioning the experience factor changes for all levels every breakpoint, not just the next levels. Lol...that ** had me completely confused...I thought maybe you meant multiply twice or something, but understood when you got the superscript going later.

[chattius 2,526]

Interview with a Dev about party experience

 

It's in german, contains maths and was done late in night ....

All that made it terrible to read... If people plan to work out these maths too I can give a translation a try, piece by piece whenever I have time:

 

Party experience is affected by

team size (Teamgröße), which is the number of members of a team in a certain distance

 

teamlevel ist quasi von jedem Spieler in Reichweite: (9 + Stufe) ^ 2

team level is for each member in range: (9+level)²(edit by chattius: sum of (9+level)² for all players?)

 

angepasste stufe ist allerdings auch wieder nur stufe + 9 zum quadrat

adjusted level is again (9 + Stufe)²(edit chattius, thats why I think it is a sum for team level)

 

MP Faktor = ( (expTeamBonus balance variable / 1000.f) ^ (team size - 1) ) * ( angepasste Stufe / teamlevel )

MP Faktor = ( (expTeamBonus balance variable / 1000.f) ^ (team size - 1) ) * ( adjusted level / teamlevel )

 

und der wird mit den basis xp multipliziert

also dann MP Faktor = ((exoTeamBonus balance variable / 1000.f) ^(team size -1))*((9+Stufe)^2) / teamlevel ) * basis experience

 

MP-Faktor is then multiplied with basis-experience

((expTeamBonus balance variable / 1000.f) ^(team size -1))*((9+Stufe)^2) / teamlevel ) * basis experience

 

ja, aber nun mal schauen wie die basis experience zusammen kamen

now we look how to calculate basis experience:

 

Formula: experience = value(CRBONUS_EXPERIENCE) * BonusFac * LvlDiffFac * LvlCapFac * MobFac * LvlDampFac *MultiFac

 

till 22:38 some talk, it is stated that the experience for a certain monster is same, if level and difficulty is same....

 

Some unmathematical talk, therefor hard to understand , is following:

 

LvlDampFac seems to be Dragonsbrothers graph

MultiFac same as MP Faktor

value(CRBONUS_EXPERIENCE) are mentors, survival bonus, equip (edit chattius: dev not mentioning experience-Buffs, they forgot to code that in?)

LvlDiffFac: less experience if you are too high level for the played difficulty

 

EXPERIMENT TO PROOF THE THEORY

Some team calculations if I guessed right that team level is a sum, people should proof them with play experience:

 

So for a Level11 teaming with a Level21

 

adjusted level: (11+9)²= 400

adjusted level: (21+9)²= 900

team level 400+900 = 1300

 

share for the level 11: 400/1300 and for the level 21: 900/1300

Edited May 11, 2010 by chattius

[FrostElfGuard 9]

ugh

 

why can't we all just play something dumb and easy

 

like diablo

 

gogo

 

Hrmm.... well... IF you'd do that with a melee toon, it would even be harder to reach 99 (cap). Up to patch 1.13 The Chaos Sanctuary and The worldstone Chambers were certain death for any melee toon. Quite an unfriendly curse from OK (Oblivion Knights). They would cast Iron Maiden, originally a Necromancer curse, causing you to relect your high end Hell damage upon yourself. First hit you landed killed your toon. With patch 1.13, you can actually play melee now.

 

Bit off topic eh

 

Greetz

 

Also, in D2 expansion they added what I call the ribbon curse. The ribbon curse hit the spell casters with damage based on the spellcaster's attack spells (damage or mana spent... I never figured it out)... if you kept casting when cursed... well... your character died. Very quickly too.

 

So. Deadly-edly for melee and spell casters both... if you didn't notice the specific curses used. Sacred does the same thing with combat arts getting magnified in niobium... which is why high level characters in hard core generally stick to safe opponents only.

 

on topic:

 

The xp still can be min-maxed... just much more of a challenge to make xp the higher you go. I would've thought that QUESTS would become more important in Niob than grinding... But there goes the voice of in-experience for you!

[gogoblender 3,070]

hey guys!

 

DB, I just added your graph to the SacredWiki experience page:

 

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacred_2:Experience

 

I pulled out a few sentences from this topic as well (forgive me if I got stuff messed up ). If there's anything else you or others want to add to that page to cement it all together in the wiki, go for it.

 

 

gogo

[dreeft 9]

Great read.

 

As a side note, the grand total experience needed to level from 1 to 80 in World Of Warcraft is 24,067,200. While there is obviously a disparity in the amount of xp per kill, on numbers alone you wouldn't even be at level 63 by that point in Sacred 2!

[Dragon Brother 619]

If you read it just before you posted that was probably my updated version. If so, glad you liked it

[gogoblender 3,070]

I'm sorry, I forgot to update this thread with DB's work. He put together a very informative article on this with the graphs and explanations:

 

Dragon Brother Experience Papers

 

 

 

gogo

[wolfie2kX 528]

Well there's also this in the same file...I ignored that because the other bit seemed like it gave a sensible answer, but maybe the different factors mentioned here and possibly others in the server could have effected it. Also, the penalty may be to the base experience or the experience after all bonuses from gear and stuff are factored in...but I really dont know)

 

Doesn't the opponent's level factor into this as well? Especially how it relates to your character?

 

Seems to me a baddy with a red ring under his feet is worth more points than one with a white one. I've seen enemies that had red rings give significantly more points and when I leave the area and come back later after I've leveled up significantly, those same enemies are now white and don't give more than 1 - 2 XP.

 

An easy test - pop into a portal and go back to western Tyr-Lysa and take a look at the turtles hanging out on the Gold Coast. I'll wager they're all shakin' in their shells and if you hit one, I'll bet his experience points are gonna suck.