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Fist Weapons Build - CM Patch


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#1 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 04:19 PM

Just went from playing the Fallen Angel patch 2.4 to the CM I & B patch.

Fist Blades! Knuckle Dusters! Yay!
Usta love those in the original Sacred. Along with unarmed combat of course.
Some use Strength, Some Dex. Some hafted based, some sword based. Lots of differences. Lotsa Choices.

So, started a build w the Shadow Warrior. Dual Wield, Frenzied Rampage, Killing Spree/Rousing Command, Grim Resilience/Reflective Emanation.

Hits much more in a FR roll than anything ever seen. Twelve times I think, not sure. Low damage per hit of course. Doesn't hit like a polearm ;)

So far:

All Strength

Tactics
Malevolent
Dual Wield
Concentration
Armor
Constitution

Will add:

DW focus
Damage Lore
Toughness
Combat Reflex

-- Anybody run this before? Or anything like it?

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#2 locolagarto

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 05:11 PM

Welcome to Dark Matters JK!

The new fist weapons the CM guys unlocked are pretty sick. I haven't tried em yet. I look forward to hearing how your build goes.


cheers

#3 gogoblender

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 07:54 PM

Welcome to DarkMatters JK!

12 hits? :o The sounds alone of a hit with that many strikes must be pretty sensational. A blender in action? Can you give us a low down on basic stats for your build, and s0me mechanics for strategies on building outwards for conceptualizing a build that does a huge flurry of hits like that, but with probably smaller damage? What about choosing a class that has percentage life leech built into a full set. Could this help with boosting damage while increasing viability, and getting the first weapons animation?

Pix and secrets please!

:bounce:

gogo

#4 Dragon Brother

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 09:25 PM

Welcome to DarkMatters JK!

12 hits? :o The sounds alone of a hit with that many strikes must be pretty sensational. A blender in action? Can you give us a low down on basic stats for your build, and s0me mechanics for strategies on building outwards for conceptualizing a build that does a huge flurry of hits like that, but with probably smaller damage? What about choosing a class that has percentage life leech built into a full set. Could this help with boosting damage while increasing viability, and getting the first weapons animation?

Pix and secrets please!

:bounce:

gogo

I think that %LL can spawn on fist weapons actualy...making it a tad imba if it hits so many times...

#5 gogoblender

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 09:40 PM

I think that %LL can spawn on fist weapons actualy...making it a tad imba if it hits so many times...


You're kidding!
:o

Has anyone seen this, got a pic?

It would kinda be nice actually...but what's the rate of leech growth on leveling on these weapons?

:)

gogo

#6 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 12:11 AM

I'm just amazed no one has shown high interest on it at all, considering I recognize a lotta peops on here from the original sacred board. :blink:

For sure it isn't like the boxers from the original sacred, but they can hit a lot alrighty.
Confirmed ten hits: swing, double swing, double swing, swing -- Then a double swing, a roundhouse, final swing.

Now keep in mind I literally completed the 13.48 Gigabyte download (that took about ten hours with my download speed) Thursday around midnight here.
I gotta build up my team strength to fully pimp my peops. No bargainer of real strength yet (28 at present), no smith, nothing outta silver yet.

I just ran the crystal run (for the first time; it was weird attacking rocks :whistle: ) and noted something of impact:
The Insect boss gave me problems. Not with being smacked around, but that I couldn't proc my FR consistent. I found out why--

For the Frenzied Rampage to begin, you gotta be really close to your opponent. Like almost sitting on their lap. If you can't get that close, you either wander around trying to get that close or it don't fire.
Solution -- you gotta back off a bit, then run back in.

Dunno if it happens with other bosses, but of course I'll letchy'all know as I go.

Now I can't tell yet (cause I got a 17th level Reflective Emanation, and haven't tested yet), but this also may be a problem for some monsters to hit me :thumbsup: , cause if you old vets will member the Barb Boxer from Sacred usta sometimes get too close for the monsters to hit you. They'd swing but whiff a whole lot, or you couldn't hit them. The normal attacks still fire regardless AFAICT, so this may be a strategical advantage.

As far as screenies, sure, later of course. Other than a coupla plus one ammys and a plus one ring I got from the bargainer, I literally have only what I could shop on a non-bargainer. No set items even seen yet, mostly cause I'm not doing much quests. Just popped 24, and I've finally got the regen of the FR to a okay level (cause the goal is to be able to run it continuously if necessary of course).

I took the leech mod for FR, so w/o any leech rings or items it leeches back fifty (five ten times) per CA. That'll of course go up naturally, as it started at three per hit.

My dilemma is whether to take a sword or a hafted skill too, or leave it alone with just the dual wield. Sword mods on regular swords pops real nice stuff open to kill much faster. If one of em specifically pops with %LL (more than likely sword), then you betcha it'd be real hard not to take it.

Because I took the regen mod on Grim Resilience, I ain't having any problems with being dead yet, so I'm taking Damage Lore next. That oughta liven things up. :cha (18):

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#7 gogoblender

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 12:24 AM

Thanks for this writeup. You made it sound pretty exciting, and I know that there have been many waiting for fist weapons to make it back in, so this patch has been timely.

Do you have a youtube or any other game video upload account, can we see a video?

:)

gogo

#8 chattius

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 03:01 AM

I did a comparing between a fist-weapon dryad and a weapon-less kungfu dryad at a very early CM-patch version. To my surprise the kungfu-dryad was better late game. The fist-weapons were way better early on but as soon better and better 'damage x-x' popped up in niobium the double-hits of the kung-fu and the better protection turned it.

From this experience I would take a guess:

In relation damage x-x rings climb faster in damage than weapons. Add that smaller but quicker attacks will trigger deathblow more often in the last strikes of a series. Fist weapons will probably play perfectly in late game if the equipment is designed for this.
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#9 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 03:27 AM

Thanks for this writeup. You made it sound pretty exciting, and I know that there have been many waiting for fist weapons to make it back in, so this patch has been timely.


I am one of them bro. I play this game fanatically, and played the previous game fanatically, and really missed boxers. Dwarf, Dark Elf, and Barb ones.
Hopefully the ones available won't be like the previous sacred, where you prayed to the Ancaria item gods to drop you a good one or Bestow one through Bravemart

Do you have a youtube or any other game video upload account, can we see a video?


Naah, but I can get one :cow_white:

Gotta sleep, as my eyes in the last ten minutes have fallen out of my head and are at present rolling around on the keyboard as I type this.
But, speaking of the Ancaria Item Gods, they have smiled on me. level 30 new set items I haven't seen before dropped on me, including a three slot + all skills one and a (yay) leech gauntlet. Plus an inquisition token that lowers evade and opponent attack level :heart:

Since I'm only silvering right now, and can't see mods for weapons unlocked, what'd really help me out is one of you veterans of the patch tell me what they spawn unlocked when they're at a big level (like the &LL mod for instance :woot: ). I'm sure I'll see em later when I get my bargainer up there, but it'd help me to plan ahead.

Lastly, I've read both that Spell Resistance skill w the patch is broken and it isn't. Which is it?

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#10 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 12:22 PM

I did a comparing between a fist-weapon dryad and a weapon-less kungfu dryad at a very early CM-patch version. To my surprise the kungfu-dryad was better late game. The fist-weapons were way better early on but as soon better and better 'damage x-x' popped up in niobium the double-hits of the kung-fu and the better protection turned it.

From this experience I would take a guess:

In relation damage x-x rings climb faster in damage than weapons. Add that smaller but quicker attacks will trigger deathblow more often in the last strikes of a series. Fist weapons will probably play perfectly in late game if the equipment is designed for this.


Coolio man.

So in your experience it is pumping death blow cause it gives it a higher chance to process, and to socket the damage rings (or find on equipment).
In my limited experience so far, LL really helps as well because it heals you (uhh, obviously), but also does additional damage.
At present with equipment I have 56 per hit. Damage for the tool tip on the FR shows at 200, with a 16 percent chance to weaken (damage lore with plus skills raise it there. So, assuming no crits and all hits, 2560 in a combo.

Also trying to work in (when I can choose the mods) a death blow to start the combo. Real low gen, but to hit the DoT mods for all three choices it'll help with the champs. Won't work till at a higher lvls, when the regen is ugly low, but that'll be on top of FR.

Also, to confirm with you (and anyone else who has tested), once the damage lore is pumping at mastery, combat discipline also increases the DoT that comes from secondary effects. Is this correct?

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#11 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 04:54 PM

Alright.

My take at present is it is a viable build.

Level 48 and a half.
Gonna wait till fifty to go to gold (to add toughness), so I can make sure I can survive guardian crits
Bosses sliver slow but steady, so I believe it'll be alright.

If so, will do an official all pretty, graphically enhanced build.

Build is (I feel) a standard dual wield/dual buff shadow warrior:

Tactics
Malevolent Focus
Dual Wield
Concentration
Armor
Constitution
Death Warrior Focus
Damage Lore
Toughness
Spell Resistance

Combos:
Demonic Blow/Frenzied Rampage
Rousing Command/Killing Spree
Augmenting Guidion/Belligerent Vault

GR -- Fortify, Readiness, Safeguard
RE -- Backlash, Antimagic, Riposte
FR -- Double Attack, Intent, Vampire
DB -- Wounding, Frailty, Trauma
RC -- Persistence, Impulse, Surge
KS -- Control, Perseverance, Sway
AG -- Elite, Healing, Fear
BV -- Routine, Unaware, Commotion

Combo for DB/FR gets twelve hits, and hits pretty fast.

*** Pros

If you focus on LL armor and rings, your health bar doesn't move. I haven't drank a pot in twenty levels. Plus it adds to your low damage
Even though you wouldn't think so, you do killing pretty quick (although may change at higher levels). Some high hit point champs are a pain, but I've never been in any danger. Even when I took on the Ice Dragon boss, with those ugly dragon strikes, I never went below half health, and didn't drink a pot.
Your buffs are monster strong, and should be strong enough to stand Niobium with no problems.

*** Cons
Low Damage
Fist Weapons don't appear to be much faster than a standard weapon. Like the amount of exertion necessary to wield a pair of brass knuckles is roughly equal to wielding two four foot forty pound swords, right? :agreed:
Difficult to find any kind of weaponry. Although you can always find around fifty swords and fifty axes in five different shops, you may find six fist kinda weapons. :twitch:

---- Definitely work in progress. I won't start a build unless I think it'll go 200. I think it can. The only way I believe it will be viable if the damage stays icky is to pump the LL as far as possible and get the best death blow percentage I can. Right now I have no deathblow; not for lack of trying.

When my shopper gets some juice this may be all academic musing, but that remains to be seen.

Feedback, criticism, and assistance is welcome.

Edited by JKtheWonderguy, 04 April 2011 - 04:55 PM.

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-- In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.
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#12 Little Faith

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 06:04 AM

...and we haven't even mentioned that fist weapons can spawn with %lifeleech yet.

#13 Dragon Brother

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 06:41 AM

...and we haven't even mentioned that fist weapons can spawn with %lifeleech yet.

Actually, my first post in this thread :)

I think that %LL can spawn on fist weapons actualy...making it a tad imba if it hits so many times...


But yes, that definitely makes this even more exciting an option :)

#14 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 02:54 PM

...and we haven't even mentioned that fist weapons can spawn with %lifeleech yet.


If any one has seen them, please post a pic.
Specific reasons why. I'll detail.

There's soooo much that can be done with this ladies and gentlemen.

As I am going along (level 55) in gold, the build possibilities are exploding inside my head.
There is a whole lots of em that can not only be viable, but, if I am correct, could be dominant. Yes, I used that word.

I know, you should be skeptical. I then will state my case, and you may see what I see. Or something else :smart:
------

I'm running a shadow warrior now, because I wanted to take advantage of --
a) Grim Resilience and Reflective Emanation
b) Rousing Command and Killing Spree

Also, as I didn't know prior (maybe some of you do, but I do more playing than perusing the forum normally),
when I use rousing command/killing spree combo in the way I've modded it, I had no idea that running movement speed also increased.
I've modded them persistence, impulse, surge/control, perseverance, sway
When the killing spree gets it's first energy release, my run speed also increases. At present more than double (from 114 to 131). That makes a difference in how I play now. Doesn't say that in the wiki, doesn't say that any where I've seen.
Maybe it's always been there; I usually play SW mounted, so didn't know.

That ain't even opening up the ball of whacks with different types of characters. But leave that for now, cause I'll get ahead of myself.

Secondly, they have much varied modifiers.

Strength or Dexterity types? There's both. AFAIK the ones with the blades are always dexterity.
Sword or Hafted? Or Neither (just dual wield)?
So do you increase all dex or str? All, or stamina to push the multiple strike Combat Arts? Vitality for health?

Third, lots of em spawn with a small amount of elemental damage. W damage lore and some planning, real easy to set up for all five damage types, or specialize in whatever they're weakest against. AFAIK, even though one is all the animation shows, the others still go too. And since you hit so fast, you can have them suffering in multiple ways even when you're not hitting them, and even w/o Combat Arts you can cause them awfulness with high attack speed.

I dunno, that's what I see. What y'all see?

Edited by JKtheWonderguy, 05 April 2011 - 02:55 PM.

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#15 Spritzen69

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 08:23 AM

What would have been nice is that the unarmed combat moves worked with fist weapons, I could see a lot more interest in the builds if it were so. I wonder if it's something our CM guys have in mind. At the moment they are associated with hafted weapons which maybe the issue why not, perhaps they could lower the damage of the weapon and not have them joined to any weapon group and just increase the speed on the fist items.

The idea of a KungFu dryad or SW is very appealing but early on it is a struggle to make them feel even slightly effective. I might have to try out a test build on the KungFu Dryad and tweak the save to see how they play in niobium, after reading chattius' comments.

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#16 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 09:23 PM

What would have been nice is that the unarmed combat moves worked with fist weapons, I could see a lot more interest in the builds if it were so. I wonder if it's something our CM guys have in mind.


I agree. It'd be a hell of a lot harder code wise though.

At the moment they are associated with hafted weapons which maybe the issue why not, perhaps they could lower the damage of the weapon and not have them joined to any weapon group and just increase the speed on the fist items...


Or just pick the speed up of the animation, like ten more percent.
I just rolled into platinum with the shadow warrior, strength based, and other than the guardians I've had no problem at all. I drank maybe ten pots all the way through gold (four with the guardians) and was just being cautious with most of em. I got close to standard equipment, have no death blow at all, and only 42 leech on equipment. I've only got plus six from rings and ammy's socketed, and a fairly low level 'opponents can't evade/opponents minus attack' ring. That's it. :BlobRed:

Keep in mind as well there are sword and hafted, and are altered by both strength and dexterity.
I built the one I'm on with strength now, but I've got another I'm building that is all dex, level 25. I like him better. Seems to get higher damage at present, both with the weaponry available and the natural dex damage.
Building a Seraphim shopper dex only build as well, also 25.

I believe as I'm playing that a dex only build will be stronger than strength based as time goes on. Gotta test it further though.

I decided to add combat disciple as my 65 skill. Not regretting it.

Scything sweep to start the combo, to slow the group down and put them in status problems, then frenzied rampage, and finishing up with a demonic blow. Thirteen hit (not counting the mufti's for SS) combo.
The reasoning is when they are fully modded is to have crits with FR and DB. I assume by reading they'll process for all hits. Maybe as well more crits with SS, but more than likely will go with a stun instead, as it'll help out more than even more critical chance.

Still so much to explore though, as I knew the old set items by heart, and I'm experimenting with different combos and skill choices with the three toons. I'm stoked. They're scything a swath through my game experience. :ninja:

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-- In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.
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#17 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 03:29 PM

Alrighty.

Came back to the strength based claw dude.
Got once to health to 25 percent, but mostly cause I wasn't paying attention.
Not many pots, not much trouble.
Bout ready to take on the fog.

Something with the patch I was unaware of (cause I just hadn't looked into it) was this new Pandemonium Set. Looks like a desirable for the build:

http://www.sacredwik...iumsbonuses.gif

Plus all skills
Opponents chance to evade
Chance to disregard armor
Death blow

Missing two pieces for the whole set at present.

It'd be nice for this Kanka's or Denderan's set, but I've only seen one piece of each so far:

http://www.sacredwik...sSetBonuses.gif

LL% Yay! But seven more pieces to go for each...

Right now for normals I'm about 135% to hit and 22% to be hit.
Mastered tactics, malevolent, constitution, armor.

When I make niobium, I'll make a film of him :)

Edited by JKtheWonderguy, 27 April 2011 - 03:40 PM.

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-- In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.
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#18 Dragon Brother

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 07:45 PM

Not bad. Kanka's is pretty overpowered for a set if you can find all of it. Having said that, pandamonium looks pretty nice too :)

PS. I fixed your double post.

#19 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 04:14 AM

Not bad. Kanka's is pretty overpowered for a set if you can find all of it. Having said that, pandamonium looks pretty nice too :)

PS. I fixed your double post.


Thanx for the help here bro.

My eyes are bugging outta my head right now, cause I wanted to push him to Niobium by tomorrow, and allergy stuff is kicking my butt all over the place, but I almost am to the Face Crystal dude.

As is a standard with the way I do almost all my grinding (with a few exceptions) I take a little time building through Silver, but only do the Character Quest and the Main Quest all the way through Gold and Plat. When I get to Niobium I slow way down, taking all the quests I can run into. I'll be picking up quite a few set items then. I'll have my sets, with the possible exception of Kanka's.

Whaddya think for pushing the next skills bro?
Highest character I ever pushed was to 89, so not real experienced in grinding Niobium.
When I went to I & B I killed all my saves, because I figured since the game is somewhat instable anyway I didn't wanna have problems with the conversion.

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-- In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.
Dwight D. Eisenhower


#20 Dragon Brother

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 05:18 AM

Whats your current skill set at the moment? And are you having regen/health/hit chance issues or anything?




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