The spirit of Sacred 2 Closed Hard Core

[Llama8 8]

Originally posted at this thread here and seeded as it's own with the second post attached. It's a very good topic and my answering it would have taken that original topic far too off course.

 

 

gogo

 

I've been doing Guardians with my not so secret agent since the low/mid-30s, but usually in small servers (ie, just me) & I've taken full advantage of a buff suit (character level Crystal Skin, maybe a bit higher than character level & GI significantly higher than character level) & good Niobium gear socketted with Niobium smith arts. This makes me wonder just how game changing/breaking Niobium gear/smith arts are? We play to the rules of hard core (1 death), but are we playing to the spirit of hard core? What is the spirit of hard core? Do we (& by that I mean me) have the moral fibre/intestinal fortitude to play Sacred 2 like we did in the beginning? No Niobium gear/smith arts? I'm not sure I do...

 

Niobium gear/smith arts do make things easier/safer & they're one of the ways that the player can balance things in his/her favour, especially with slightly more off the wall builds. This wasn't meant to be offensive (I'm just as "bad" at using Niob gear/etc as anyone else), but I think the initial question is an interesting one, just how "game changing" is Niob gear/smith arts & where do you draw the line between legitimately using concepts/gear/etc that Ascaron put in the game (eg, trading, farming for gear for other characters) & abuse/exploits?

[Ryanrocker 200]

Yes, Llama I believe that was the main source of my problems. Not having access to Niob smith runes or any set items besides those that dropped for me ended up doing me in. I recently just started on the PC last weekend and it's a completely different experience. Having zero in your hero chest, having to scrounge around for runes....it really did suck that first hour of gameplay. But I think that there should be a limit of how much we can exploit situations like this. I feel that having Niob runes smithed into a silver character is a tad ridiculous. I mean if you are doing it for a specific purpose (shopper, utility build for faster leveling and campaign progress) but I don't think we should be making our average characters based on having access to crazy good gear, although it should still be an aspect of builds. Well, that was my 2 cents, off to play some more

[locolagarto 15]

I think you have to let that be a personal preference. To extend to game re-play factor we look for advantages from things we have learned. There are so many aspects to the game that we are finding "new" again. After all Niob Arts are not exactly "easy" to get. although we have created some techniques that accelerate the process, and have made it "easier". A ton of time and hard work went into those techniques.

 

There is little to no PvP in this community, so competitive gaming is not really an issue. But setting "challenges" for ourselves to make the game play extends is a great idea, and in some cases could become community events.

 

So I thought when I discovered how easy I had made Console play compared to PC. That inspired the HC challenge for Consoles thread. And I suspect that one of these days when I get bored, I will issue some kind of similar challenge, as Arperum has done with his recent "au natural" insanity build.

 

Have fun out there! We take our gaming very seriously at times. Make sure we have fun in the process!

[Schot 407]

For myself I've quite easily justified the means. I'm pretty good at that. But for a lot of us the "easy road" habit comes from a long career of Underworld gaming. The 4 B's and many others, Booster Slots, Buff suits, Bargaining networks, Blacksmithing, SB training etc, have long been ingrained into our Sacred lifestyles. It's a tough habit to kick!

 

Personally I don't find these techniques questionable in the least. Let's not under-estimate Ascaron. They thought of some pretty intensely complex mechanics for the game. I'm fairly certain that when they nerfed +skills that they had our Niob shopping/smithing in mind knowing that we could counter the balance with those techniques. In terms of say Bronze, Silver, Gold and Plat difficulty these techniques can appear to provide far too much power but the funny thing about all these techniques we've created is that the closer your character gets to Niob level the less effective these techniques become. By the time a character reaches level 140+ they undoubtedly realize that techniques that used to provide incredible power do so no longer. by level 140+ it won't be the techniques providing power to your character but rather the smart choices made during the leveling such as skills, point allocation, CA modifications and Item Mod forging.

 

I see these techniques as senior benefits. Only those who have invested a HUGE amount of time can even have most of these techniques. In a sense by the hard work required to attain these techniques is deserving of using them. Naturally the ultmate challenge in most everyone's minds is to reach the highest level possible and for that we need every possible trick in the book and then some to attain it.

 

 

In the grand scheme of things "The spirit of Sacred 2 Closed HC" is very simple to me. Fun! Pure and simple fun. It doesn't need to be anything more than that to me.

[FrostElfGuard 9]

I struggled with this same idea recently. I reinstalled S1.

I had been playing S1 in it's heyday with X accounts (10 I think)--so I had tons of equipment, runes, and gold. I had buff suits, trade suits and all kinds of goodies.

 

In my reinstall, I limited myself to what I could get out of the game itself. It was way more challenging. And way slower in terms of leveling. And not as satisfying as the other method.

 

I suspect that people who have established niob accounts, trade networks, and such will use every advantage to the hilt. It gives the biggest rush to play to maximum capability.

 

Heck, playing Sacred 2 online this last week, I got help from a certain player. He Niob smithed for me damage multipliers for my arm bracers and boots. 2 sockets: something like 70% damage increase. That is insane. My character was suddenly cutting through mobs like they were butter (and had been struggling before). He also gave me opponent cannot evade rings to socket (4 of them)... my "to hit" chance went from 56% to 134%. {Thank you Llama}

 

So. I don't think we can't walk away from the boosts we can get.

 

On the other hand, Ironman characters will only use what they forage or their own character can store and provide. They had Ironman in S1 too. It is a very big challenge, not one like to be taken by most players who have gotten over the original hump of amassing wealth (gold, items, bargaining suits, buff suits, sets, shopped for items).

Edited June 22, 2010 by FrostElfGuard

[Furian67 15]

Excellant topic Llama. For me I have to agree with Loco and Schot and really just about everyone that has posted. We have spent the time and hard work probably many deaths and now I get the benefit of niob smith/bargained equipment.

 

But what I do with all that now is push the envelope and play in the highest and hardest difficulty I can. For instance my Ultimate Warrior build is level 60 now and I'm running in platnium. I can't use what he picks up but the challenge is there.

[Dobri 55]

I would also like to add myself to the list of people who agree. Getting a good personal smith (1 account slot) up to niob is no easy deal when you have no support. Getting a few good niob shoppers without any help isn't easy as well (no speed camping, using the do-it-yourself way).

 

After you do all this all by yourself - you'll cherish those chars and use them anytime you need them. It's like a reward for all you have accomplished with blood and sweat in the past. For example, my level 75 niob shopper single handedly blasted all 4 platinum guardians and their helpers into oblivion in over 40 minutes (real time of course) unstoppable incendiary shower casting and running in the corridors (thank Ascaron they're round!) and nearly got killed twice (left with a sliver of HP). For me, this makes her invaluable, just like my smith, who took a lot of time and orc cave runs to get there... Many people have such characters and they tend to utilize them as much as they can, as a tribute to all the time and sweat they wasted to accomplish this feat.

[Grumpy Old Wizard 0]

While I have stuck to softcore for Sacred 2, I've played Diablo2 hardcore single player and multi. When playing hardcore I keep stashes separate (ATMA for Diablo) for hardcore and softcore characters. Sometimes I'll play a character untwinked but otherwise I feel free to share between my hardcore characters as I don't consider that hardcore also impies untwinked.

[vaclaf 10]

Hello all good players,

I will add my concept and experience to this topic - my main idea is about that "resources" we speak about (shopping, smithing, stashed loot, buff gear etc). I result from my Mechanix´s builds. There is one difference - both of them are created on Single Player, but that best fit to my example, because it is only about your own game without anyother help.

 

Mechanix T-100 - I started this character from absolutely zero point - level by level, loot by loot, collecting gameplay experience, make money, shopping every 10-15 level, stashed all usable things for next character, smithing every one equipment, planning next skill/CAs/modification steps .. all this happens for one goal - make a build, precisely designed for niob playing using that crazy Lost Fusion tree. Then, I remembered how Ice and Blood nerfed +skills and Deathblow for CAs - wow, another challenge.

 

With all of this "support, utility" things I created Mechanix X-E build, which is very well working build primary BASED on that resources. This is for me like reward, best satisfaction - look, it works!

 

I think Ascaron known very well about these "resources" and its purpose is to reward players for long-time playing, creating replayability (fights againts boring of every new characters born) and helps with new, interesting builds. For me, these resources shows for all of us an amazing Sacred 2 gameplay mechanics complexity.

 

Good looting:-)

 

vaclaf

 

p.s. I know, it is only game:-)

[dreeft 9]

I think it's important for gamers to push any game to it's limit. This includes, but is not limited to; finding bugs, exploring areas they are not supposed to be able to access, creating god-like twinked characters and generally attempting to break the game. There is no reason why the testing should stop when a game comes out of Beta. If Ascaron (or any developer for that matter) believes that it's users will not attempt to take advantage of any loop holes they can find, they are being naive.

 

Now that the game is stalled and will likely never receive any more updates (other than the CM patch), it will really come into it's own. New and exciting ways to take advantage of the 'final' setup are already being discovered and a whole new collection of sneaky 'tricks' are able to come to the fore.

 

I completely agree with everyone, if you have put in the work, you deserve to reap the rewards of your effort. Schot is right that the spirit of Closed HC is more to do with the enjoyment and sense of community than the way people choose play the game.

[claudius 104]

Theres no way I'm going to stop using these things on most of my characters. I would be interested in doing an event of iron man with 1 or 2 characters on the other hand. I haven't seen how kami works but it would be interesting to have an event with an ironman approach. No outside interaction with other characters. No transport of gold or items. No shared chest. I used to play Titan quest single player that way in Xmax (which made it easier to find items harder to beat bosses).

[essjayehm 58]

Beautiful topic! Great posts, by everyone....

 

It's been a few months since I defragged my PS3, and I was playing completely "fair" since that event. I made a new toon this week (another Inquisitor), and I am using my Niob access to buy his equipment. I am still "fair" by only socketing jewellery he can buy (albeit Niob-quality), but I have noticed a drastic decrease in the general difficulty of the game. Silver, as stated by a lot of others in a lot of threads... is somewhat of a joke. Playing with only silver-shopped equipment, it was a "fair" challenge, that is to say there was a possibility of death if proper attention was not paid (both in gameplay and setting up the toon).

 

I do realize fully that as I progress thru the difficulties and level up some, that the bonuses from Niob-equipment will start to diminish, and the difficulty will begin to ramp up again; I still feel that "disappointment" that I get when I get a new game (or revisit an old one), and it is "too easy". At least this is easily solved by going back to playing fairly again, but Sacred definitely has lost some of its' "magic" for me from the techniques under discussion here.

 

Obviously, the important question here, fairness for everyone, is kinda moot since we are not huge PvP players, so I would have to finalize my post by saying that the Niob-shopping/smithing is something we have earned, and Ascaron obviously knows the power-level of these techniques, and did not nerf them (as they did with allskills, rune limits, etc) so we should not feel any shame or remorse, or whatever when using them!

 

Smith on, my frends. Oh, and stay thristy, as well

Edited June 23, 2010 by essjayehm

[Dragon Brother 619]

Well I think its perfectly ok to use toons that we have levelled or run through a campaign to by/socket better gear for another toon thats just starting out, and while things are made easier through the use of shortcuts such as camp running, they can be done without them and its just a means of saving time. For those of us with the resources, like has been said its about the people online, and seeing just how far we can push a toon. Sometimes you even get the urge to play a toon with no help, it just comes down to what you enjoy I guess. And it does allow the playing of toons that may have otherwise been not very fun to level through the sheer difficulty of there survivability.

[Furian67 15]

Well said by All. I love this place!

[FrostElfGuard 9]

Hmm. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to drop something that Hans-Arno Wegner (lead designer of S1 and Sacred 2) said in here.

 

I asked him about the Seraphim in S1 using Dual Wield, 2 Fadalmar's Embossed Axes socketed with 4 Fadalmar's rings (and over-socketed to allow a Seraphim without Axe Lore to wield the axes). That produced a Seraphim character that was never designed to have Fadalmar's fireballing axe (the bonus from a fully socketed, normally single weapon wielded axe was % chance for fireballs for each time an opponent was damaged).

 

I asked him something along the lines of, "Is this cheating?"

 

And he answered (with words to this effect), "No. It wasn't foreseen, but it is possible in the game as designed. So, go do it if it pleases you."

 

I'm pretty sure they've foreseen the ramifications of the shared chest. So, I think niob-smithing and niob-shopping of low level gear is a deep-gamer intentional aspect of the game.

Edited June 23, 2010 by FrostElfGuard

[gogoblender 3,070]

Iron Man way of playing is simply that... a chosen way of playing.

 

Made-up rules for peeps who's interests are different from mine.

 

Ultimately my own interest is seeing how much fun we can have with this game while seeing all of its limits.

 

There are still so many mysteries of this game. I'm not ready to commit to self-imposed iron man restrictions yet, especially while still adventuring every day with my friends on the servers and on this forum and with the wiki.

 

Sacred 2 still delights me

 

 

gogo

[Furian67 15]

Iron Man way of playing is simply that... a chosen way of playing.

 

Made-up rules for peeps who's interests are different from mine.

 

Ultimately my own interest is seeing how much fun we can have with this game while seeing all of its limits.

 

There are still so many mysteries of this game. I'm not ready to commit to self-imposed iron man restrictions yet, especially while still adventuring every day with my friends on the servers and on this forum and with the wiki.

 

Sacred 2 still delights me

 

 

gogo

 

Iron Man? Hmm can we use that for the terminology of a build that is strickly living off what only he can find/buy/smith himself? I think I may have a new project build to try just for this sort of character. "The Ice and Blood Iron Man" I like the sound of that. First things first gotta get finished with the current project.

[Dragon Brother 619]

Hmmm...Iron man makes me think of some uber rich toon that can have everything he wants, awesome armour and awesome weapons...doesnt really sound like a toon you'd play with no sort of help.

[Migosha 0]

Furian is right DB : the term 'Iron Man' in an RPG/Action RPG refers to a character who will equip himself and level all by himself without 'using' any other character and help from your other characters or from any other player. That character has to do everything alone, it's like the RPG version of an hermit

[Manzikeen 0]

Have to agree with most of the other posts here, if you've worked your way to niob with one character why shouldn't the others you start reap the benefits as well.

 

An Iron Man challenge does sound interesting but at the same time it is, in a way, how we all started off playing the game to begin with. Day of release we didn't have niob smithers to give us great gear, we just charged straight into the game play and through trial and error reached our goals.

[Groosum 1]

Well I'm finding it a nice hard slog since I started in Closed Net with Ice and Blood. Frankly it is a nice change to have to work for everything from a clean slat opposed to modified characters and environment in Lan and Sp that we all can lean towards at times.

[r00ster 1]

This is a great topic.

 

I have found over many many years, there are really two ways to play these games, and really most games in general;

 

1. The Min/Max utmost power

2. The purist.

 

I used to go for the complete min/max always. I still do in some games like replaying all my final fantasies (1-12) where the fun is in collection and creation of the best loots, and stats etc. Though the FF's are essentially done once you finish the game, the min/maxing is what is left for the lover of the game, sometimes with a few super bosses. The FF's and similar have always left the end open to the player to jack their stuff to the most insane, but strictly for love of the games, not competitive or player edge really.

 

However, for the ARPG styles, Sacred, Titan Quest, Borderlands etc, I have found through all my time that it is similar to the above style games, yet not so.

These games, built around the best gear, builds etc lose an incredible amount of appeal (for me) with methods like the niob smith arts. So much that in recent years, I pretty much just put games that allow, or have such possibilities down.

 

For instance, in Titan Quest, the game got extremely hard near end game legendary, unless you'd muled etc and then it was just a cakewalk. Same for Sacred with all it's features for reaching too much power too fast. The challenge and lust for power and loot is gone if it just lets me do these things too fast.

 

For instance, I recently finished replaying one of my utmost all time favs; FFVI (or FF3 if u know it as that) on a GBA rom. The whole game was great, and the 'overpowered' stuff really doesn't show up till the main game is over, and a few 'super challenges' await, where you get the real crazy stuff. This makes it logical to me, as I can only make my chars truly ridiculously powerful once I have faced the challenges of the game once through normally.

 

I really like the FF series (among my fav series' ever really....) for the way each game approaches these sorts of things... ever take on pennance in FFX? the grind to get powerful enough on the sphere grid is truly insane...

 

I think its really a double sided coin. I love making super toons, don't get me wrong. I love it. Best part of RPG gaming.

 

The main thing for me is WHEN they allow you to do this. The FF's etc have special areas for characters and players who go through all the insanity of min/maxing usually so it's worth it.

I found in ARPG's simlar, but with things like muling etc to new chars, it defeats this, and really I've been losing the lustre for this genre due to it.

 

I find myself mostly these days going back to my roots with most games, my favorites etc, or ARPG kin that don't allow these kinds of things (Dungeon Siege 2 anyone?). OR even super grind hack n' slashes like 'Musou Orochi Z' (gotta read japanese for this one...) etc. Games that you grind to power, not just obtain it.

 

I think this was/is my major concern with Sacred 2. I still enjoy it, but I force myself to use absolutely none of these things as it just subtracts the enjoyment for me these days. I like the 'grind for power' most, not just 'have power'.

 

This is the result of being an insanely hardcore gamer for over a few decades.

 

Great topic.

 

Cheers,

 

EDIT* Here is a very interesting thing from FFVIII, where the game had a similar leveling ratio system to the player (I.e. enemies leveled as you did); this is the honest strategies of pretty much everyone in this case: "Enemies level up with you. Therefore, do NOT level up. I'm not saying you are never allowed to gain a level, but just don't go levelling up. At the near end of the game, equip Stat Bonus abilities and THEN level up to gain alot of stat boosts." - I should note, that this author means the 'end of the game, when basically everything is done, you have everything etc, and just want to grind for love of the game.

 

The enemies would also gain new skills, spells, etc at break points etc, thus making them much harder than the lower level counter parts. It became common to attempt to beat the game without leveling at all, as this kept the enemies in their weakest states.

 

Very interesting if you think of how we play(ed) sacred, which has essentially the same leveling mechanics... the solution for the best game is basically don't level! all it does is make the game harder! and... it's true... so wierd! What would we do in sacred, without the levels? but it's true, all we do is make the enemies more powerful.... such a logic! I felt need to add this to this post.

 

Perhaps this is the challenge for sacred as well (very common in FF games....) the 'No level challenge' ! it's not about grinding etc, its about staying at the default level, completing everything etc, and how to do this. It is usually immensely challenging. It wouldn't work flawlessly like FF games due to mechanics differences, but perhaps lowest possible level feats might be something worth doing.... like guardians and level 10 or something...

 

 

@ Groosum;

 

Groo is the icon of my life lol. Just thought you should know that. My other larger (non gaming related alias) is gr00grams, from the name of the letter page in Sergio's comic. You're the first person ever I've seen with refereance aside myself. Cheers for that!

Edited July 8, 2010 by r00ster